#1 Re: ScenarioGame 1 » A new concept to Longturn games, scenario game » Yesterday 16:42:26

After we decide about the start date, there needs to be at least two week period of confirming participations. During that time more players can join the game. Probably best to merge nations only after confirmations are done.

Waiting is horror smile but I would probably wait for more players. I'm not 100% sure if I will play and if there are more players who will not confirm, it might be a very small game. The summer is soon over even here and players will probably check for games later this month.

#2 Re: ScenarioGame 1 » A new concept to Longturn games, scenario game » Yesterday 15:20:49

[17:45:21] <(wieder)> opinions about ScenarioGame1?
[17:46:08] <(wieder)> There Will be some kind of advanced start, at least with pre-built cities
[17:46:18] <(wieder)> is that all that is needed?
[17:46:54] <(wieder)> there is no reason we couldn't start with size 1 cities and with no techs... just wondering...
[17:47:26] <(wieder)> Personally I would at least add some techs to everyone but we can of course do without that

#3 Re: LT40 » The empire sizes (proposal) » 15.08.2017 19:34:07

Without overlapping one city takes about 50 tiles but people usually build the cities as close to each other as possible. With 900 tiles and without overlapping the players could  each fit about 18 cities if the map was land only. With the shores that's about 25 cities without overlapping. With citymindist 6 I would imagine there would be room for about 30-35 cities / player. Maybe even 40 if there are few idlers. With city limits from 25 up to 35 there should be lots of empty space. If people really want to have more empty land, maybe the city limits could be between 20-30? The empire_size_step probably needs to be 1 because after Shakespeare's that's no longer a hard limit but more like a serious trouble for those who want to get too many cities.

The governments on civ2civ3 are maybe designed to be used at any time of the game and there is usually no real need to switch because of empire size limitations. Maybe once because of that. In this setup there is actually even less need to switch because of empire size but for other reasons. Tribalism and Monarchy should be quite good for those who want to wage war and also research without really pushing that. Fundamentalism is the same as with LT38and it's great for economy and war but reasonably bad for research. I would imagine switching to that in mid game would work for most people, allowing them to play the conquest game while also becoming rich like the Spanish did when they went after the gold of the far away lands. The theme for LT40 is kind of switching between governments and with 1 turn anarchy it should be reasonably easy. In theory smile

I might do something like tribalism - monarchy - fundamentalism - democracy/communism. Or republic if there is no wars close to me but I bet there will be smile

I'm also not 100% sure about the early units, but that's also an attempt to implement the "Golden Age" of the commercial Civ games. Needs to be tested but the idea is that you get a bonus if you are able to use specific government when that gov is reaching the days of glory. Not sure if I make sense about this smile In any case, the early units are not planned to appear too early. Everything should be there one or two steps early and it should be possible to build only a modest number of those units before the others (without the gov in use) are able to reach the actual tech usually needed for the units. Really needs testing...

Something special would be needed for Democracy but no yet idea what that might be. Maybe something peaceful? Not sure really.

#4 Re: ScenarioGame 1 » A new concept to Longturn games, scenario game » 15.08.2017 14:30:58

I thought about it maybe best to edit the  German States 1871 scenario. Some "artistic freedom" needs to be taken, probably, meaning that some nations should be merged or edited out depending on how many players we get. While testing different scenarios would be preferable, it looks like that starting with one scenario, playing it and then playing it again for the second time with edits and fixes would really help balancing and understanding this scenario stuff.

The tech levels need to be set to allow the advanced start. Somehow it doesn't feel right to start with ancient techs.

Another question is tech trading and tech leakage. How to set those?

And the buildings... I'm not that familiar with that time period in Germany. I know the story of the unification and stuff but I have no idea about what kind of infra different states had around the time.

The city sizes are another issue. They should be something like 10-12 maybe. So that not too much time is needed to grow the cities. Not sure how big the cities were at the time...

#5 LT39 » Restrictinfra ON or OFF ? » 14.08.2017 20:26:14

wieder
Replies: 0

LT39 will be a more traditional game but on some traditional games there has been restrictinfra on and on some it has been off?

What about tired attack?

Maybe turn both ON or OFF but not just enable one and not the other. Somehow it feels like that's how it has been for traditional games.

#6 Re: LT40 » The empire sizes (proposal) » 12.08.2017 15:30:57

Maybe 900 tiles / player. Standard games usually have about 450 tiles / player. The idea is that there should be enough room for everyone and this wouldn't be a game about building all the cities you can fit on the map.

Actually nationalism could have as few as 20 cities but you could build early tanks and maybe early fighters before getting the techs. Fighters could be built with combustion and tanks with automobile. Those units could also be possible with monarchy.

Also, maybe we could add early caravels with with physics if you are on republic or federation.

Despotism could get early knights with feudalism.

With communism, if you switch to communism, you could build early destroyers.

All the early units will be slightly less powerful compared to actual units. Maybe just less moves. For early destroyer maybe 15 moves instead of 18 and for knights 5 moves instead of 6.

What do you think about gov specific early units? The idea is to make switching between governments more interesting and allowing new strategies.

To make government changes more interesting, the duration of anarchy would be just one turn instead of the usual two turns.

And yeah, the cost of the space ship will be reduced. Makes sense if the idea is to end the game with space race, if possible.

Tech trading is also something that's going to be there but maybe in a for of allowing stealing. The chance of stealing a tech could be something like 50% and the base chance of succeeding with a diplo/spy could be 50%. To spice this there could be a 10% chance for the original owner of losing the tech.

All this will only apply to LT40 and LT39 will remain as more traditional LT game. Just repeating this message so that people who want to play more traditional game know that there will be a more traditional game smile

#7 LT40 » The number of winners for LT40 » 01.08.2017 16:18:38

wieder
Replies: 0

How would you feel if there was only one winner in the space race victory scenario? The rest of the players could be ranked according to the in-game scores.

Winning the space race scenario would basically only mean that you were the first one to do it.

Of course if the allied victory takes place, the max alliance size could be 30-50% of the players starting the game.

#8 LT39 » Any changes you would like to see for a more traditional game? » 29.07.2017 12:23:59

wieder
Replies: 6

In more traditional games it's all about winning and becoming super powerful. Are there any changes you would like to see making that to happen? If you don't have ideas for specific units, you can also suggest stuff like more/less powerful navy, better mounted units or maybe something that would make some other action more easy or maybe harder to perform.

#9 Re: other » Off Topic: sightseeing in north Scandinavia » 29.07.2017 12:13:09

One good way for seeing lots of stuff is to get in a tram and see the city from there . The tram route T3 is perfect for that. You only need to purchase the tickets beforehand since they may not sell tickets in the trams. I'm not 100% sure about this since ending ticket sales is something that should have happened some time ago but they were still selling those after the first deadline. Anyway, it maybe best to purchase a ticket beforehand. Here are the prices and where to get them. R-Kioski is a very popular kiosk brand here and it may be easiest to purchase the tickets there.

https://www.hsl.fi/en/dayticket

From R-Kioski you can also get a prepaid sim card if you need to connect to the internet. Just ask for a pre-paid card with data and they will tell you what kind of cards there are. Telia cards have been very reliable and they probably have the best networks. The second best choice would be Elisa or Saunalahti card. No registration is needed and the card can be used shortly after putting it into a phone.  They should sell this https://kauppa.telia.fi/yksityisille/tu … epaid.aspx card on R-Kioski. It costs 3,90 euro or 5.90 euro and you get unlimited data for 7 days. The pin code is usually 1234 or 0000. People always forget to ask that and it's usually hidden in somewhere in the package smile

R-Kioskis are effectively small shops looking like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … lsinki.JPG

If you want to get a bottle of wine or anything stronger than 4.7% to go you need to buy it from government owned Alko shops. mo-fri they close at 20:00 and Saturdays at 18:00. Prepare to prove your age (really) if you look under 30 years old. The age limit for wines is 18 and for stronger stuff 20 years. Beer and cider can be bought from food stores and they sell it until 21:00. Restaurants and bars are usually open until 01:30.

Most people here speak reasonably good English.

Here is actually a nice list of main attractions:

http://www.visithelsinki.fi/en/see-and- … &mode=list

If you really want to see people practicing the national sports, you can go to the Kallio district. In the evenings and especially in the weekend evenings pretty much most of the population there is drunk. Quite often really really drunk big_smile

#10 LT40 » The empire sizes (proposal) » 28.07.2017 13:49:53

wieder
Replies: 4

This is only a draft, but it could be something like this:

Despotism 25 cities
Tribalism 28 cities
Democracy 30 cities
Monarchy 35 cities
Fundamentalism 30 cities
Federation 34 cities
Republic 32 cities
Communism 30 cities
Nationalism 28 cities

The empire_size_step will be 1, meaning that every new city after the base empire_size will result with a new unhappy citizen.

The idea for all this is to let most players to reach the end of the game and see how they rank in the in-game scores. It's also about winning the space race. Conquest victory will be possible but it's not as easy or likely as it has been in the past games.

#11 Re: other » Experiences with technology trading in LongTurn games » 28.07.2017 12:25:46

Wow! 142 human players is already... just wow smile

While LT40 is not an experimental game, there are experimental features to it. We will test one more way of letting the players to trade. The difference is that tech trading with heavy penalties allows you to risk it, get the techs if really needed (and there is a source) and try to survive with the new techs, while paying the heavy penalties.

The problem is that if the penalty is not big enough, there may be not too nice problems with balancing. Now I think that while this penalty is supposed to be a big one, there are still exploits left. The final penalties are to be decided.

I also reply here to corbeau about tech upkeep. I registered on forum.freeciv.org but my account is not yet active.

Here is the link to that thread: http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.ph … 3&start=10

Tech upkeep might be a solution with different implementation but currently it is not one. On a team game it's relatively easy to void the effects of the upkeep. You get 10 techs, your balance goes negative and you will lose one tech every turn from now to the end of the game because you have no bulb prod for the techs. The player can however avoid most of the issues by simply receiving all the lost and new techs every turn. There is also a chance that you only lose some obsoleted tech like warrior code. The only real problem comes if you lose a government tech, but that is not too probable and is also quickly fixed.

This also gives an advantage to those player who can be online at the turn change. They can immediately get back the lost techs while someone else may need to wait.

#12 Re: other » Experiences with technology trading in LongTurn games » 27.07.2017 13:34:25

Now, after saying all that, I have just opened the signups for LT39 and LT40. While LT39 will be a more traditional LT game without tech trading, LT40 will be something different. On LT40 there will be tech trading but with a heavy penalty. The cost of receiving techs will be something like 150% negative bulbs and maybe with a 10% chance for the giving party to lose the tech that is transferred. This is not the first time we have been experimenting with different tech trading settings but it's probably the first time with this heavy penalty. I only wonder how long it takes to find an exploit with this one...

#13 LT40 » Signups open for LT40 » 27.07.2017 13:18:52

wieder
Replies: 0

This is a game with limited empire sizes and with focus on creating the most advanced civilization. Tech trading will be possible but with a heavy penalty.

Start date probably at late November.

Will be based on LT38 with some changes.

LT40 will start while LT39 is still running. LT39 is for those who want to try to conquer the world or try to achieve the very challenging space race victory. LT40 is more suited for those who do not prefer reaching world domination but instead try to reach the stars.

World domination victory will be possible with LT40 but is probably not that easy because of the empire size restrictions.

#14 LT39 » Signups open for LT39 » 27.07.2017 13:14:55

wieder
Replies: 0

This is a more traditional game with allied victory. No tech trading.

Start date probably at late October.

Will be based on LT38 with (probably) minor changes.

LT40 will start while LT39 is still running. LT39 is for those who want to try to conquer the world or try to achieve the very challenging space race victory. LT40 is more suited for those who do not prefer reaching world domination but instead try to reach the stars.

#15 Re: other » Experiences with technology trading in LongTurn games » 27.07.2017 10:38:25

Hi!

The biggest reason for disabling the tech trading is that it makes the game unbalanced. Tech trading was said to have become a popularity contest. The popular and player who have more time to use for chatting and diplomacy were able to grab pretty much all the tech for free and that made it really difficult for the others to catch up. It also allows some nasty strategies where more advanced units are used while tech stealing is not possible due to player positioning. For example, player A is attacked through the territory of player B and the attacker is player C. Now when the cities are empty the player B takes the cities and keeps them as long as the front moves further away and player C takes the cities from player B. Disabling city trading doesn't prevent this because player B can simply empty the cities, switch to war between B and C and let the player C take the cities.

Tech trading also allows one nation to focus on researching and "sim citying". This strategy allows massive attacks once techs techs are distributed to the allies in one turn. Negative research doesn't prevent this because you only lose one tech with negative / each turn and 50% of the negative bulb balance is wiped out at the turn change.

City trading is also turned off for most games because it allows the more advanced players to build the units for less advanced ones. Player A builds units and homes them to some city. Then player B takes that city, upgrades the units and trades the city back to player A. Now player A has tons of more advanced units he should have. This can be also done with another trick but it's at least less abusive when city trading is off. City trading also allows the front cities to be given for a player in democracy, preventing bribing the cities.

Instead of tech trading we are nowdays using tech leakage. This makes the techs cheaper for everyone (with or without an embassy) who has not invented them. With a 100 player game a tech costing 100 bulbs costs 100 bulb for the fist player researching it and 99 bulbs for the second one. The last player effectively gets it for free since the cost is only 1 bulb. This allows players to easily catch up in the early and mid game. In the late game the effect is no longer that powerful since some of the players are wiped out and will no longer be able to invent techs.

We also experimented with tech loss, meaning that the original owner of the tech might lose the tech when it's stolen, but that resulted with some very odd situations where someone lost something like 15 techs in just few turns when the less advanced players managed to brute force some cities with recently obsoleted, but still relatively useful, units.

LT37 had a 10% chance for tech stealing when cities were captured.

The current game LT38 is without tech trading and tech stealing. LT39 will be the same but for LT40 there will be some form of tech stealing. Not sure yet what that will be.

Btw.... Do you really have 300 players in one game? Or some of them are AI player until humans take them? How many actual human players do you usually have in one game?

#16 Re: other » Looking for a ruleset » 23.07.2017 13:16:30

I should really look at the forum more carefully... Missed (also) this one smile

I don't remember any 2x games on LT. Nowdays most units have 3x moves but some have less. Nukes and the air units for example have more like 1x-2x moves. 1.5x seems right for most of them.

LT games never used Freeciv 2.4. The first 2.3 game was LT30 and the final 2.3 game was LT35. The first 2.5 game was LT36 and we will probably keep using 2.5 at least for some time.

#17 Re: other » Off Topic: sightseeing in north Scandinavia » 23.07.2017 12:58:28

Of course it depends on what you would like to see or do, but here are few popular ones.

One popular attraction is the Linnanmäki amusement park in Helsinki. The entrance is free and it's relatively close to downtown.

https://www.linnanmaki.fi/

There is also the sea fortress Suomenlinna. Directly translated as the castle of Finland even while there is no actual castle. Just the sea fortress smile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomenlinna

#18 ScenarioGame 1 » The signups for SG1 are now open » 23.07.2017 11:24:44

wieder
Replies: 0

The start date is not yet set. At the moment we want to know how many players would be interested in playing a game with some scenario. The particular scenario may be selected after we know the number of the players.

There will be advanced start meaning some cities will be already built when the game starts. You will also have some units. The map will be probably quite small compared to LT games.

Join if you are interested.

#20 LT38 » Idler positions available, new players can join the game » 09.07.2017 14:31:43

wieder
Replies: 0

We have few idlers who can be replaced. Those players already have developed nations since the teammates have been paying for them. If you are interested, please reply here or send me mail. Irc is also an option. I'm on #longturn / Freenet.

#21 Re: LT38 » open seat » 05.07.2017 13:15:58

Passwords are secret. No not share passwords.

If someone shares a password, you should not use it. Instead ask for a delegation if needed. You can ask on the forum or on the public in-game chat. Or you may also choose to send me mail through forum mailing system.

#22 Re: other » Delegation Team Etiquette » 25.06.2017 13:36:51

Hi!

Usually only one delegation is allowed but with LT38 you can get two if that's admin approved. A forum post is also something that should be done, but I guess that with 2 team games you can also make a public post on in-game chat.

The rules and winning conditions for LT38 can be found here:
http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?id=738

The general rules for LT games can be found here:

http://longturn.org/rules/

The general rules apply unless "overwritten" on the LT38 specific rules.

Thanks for asking. You can always ask more if something is not that obvious.

#23 Re: LT38 » Delegation... or not? » 24.06.2017 12:13:52

Delegation set.

You can't set the delegation in-game. For delegating you need to go to longturn.org web site and set the delegation there. Go to http://www.longturn.org/game/LT38/ and the dlegation is on the bottom of the page.

#24 Re: ScenarioGame 1 » A new concept to Longturn games, scenario game » 23.06.2017 12:52:13

The probem with nations with units only is conquering the cities. One way to deal with this would be giving those nations only ancient techs. That way the conquered cites would not be able to produce new units or at least units that are modern enough. Does this sound too weird?

Maybe we could test the scenario game with a very small and short game setup? Maybe editing some map for a limited number of players and playing a 10-20 turn game with 23h turns? Anyone interedted to play such a short game? It would be a non ranking game and we could plan the setup together.

#25 LT40 » LT40 will start in 3-6 months from now » 22.06.2017 16:50:55

wieder
Replies: 0

It's going to be a teamless game based on LT38.

What's special with LT40 is that building huge empires will be extremely hard. The government sizes will be changed to allow more cities before getting the first unhappy citizen. After reaching the city limit the empire size step will start creating unhappiness issues for those who try to conquer every possible city there is to be conquered. The empire size step will be something between 1-5.

Space race will be enabled and the game will probably end with a space race victory. Conquest victory will be possible but not likely to happen.

The winning alliance size is limited to 30-50% of the players starting the game.

There will be some more experimental features with this game but the game will not be experimental one. It's to be decided if this is going to be a ranking game or not.

Experimental features will include, but possibly not limited to, following features:

- swordsmen, musketeers and riflemen can't attack directly from ships
- there will be a new government, nationalism, similar to fundamentalism but without -50% sci penalty and the max sci/tax/lux rate is 50%
- some form of tech trading or tech stealing will be possible
- building cities on mountains may be possible
- there is a WW1-WW2 era unit able to provide some kind of defense against air units (if possible)

LT40 will start around the same time with LT39 assuming that there is enough interest for two games. If not, it will start at a later time.

All suggestions about map, map type, ruleset changes or something else are welcome.

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