Looks like funda is still too weak for actual use.
Maybe this would make funda a real option?
* Still -50% penalty for science.
* Cities produce an extra trade point for every worked land tile that is already producing trade.
* Units can be bribed.
* Not possible to incite cites.
* The only government able to build crusaders and fanatics.
* No upkeep for crusaders and fanatics.
* Each city can support up to 2 units for free; further units each cost 2 gold per turn (except for Fanatics).
* Each city tolerates up to 3 aggressively deployed military units; each further unit causes 1 unhappy citizen.
* Buildings that normally confer bonuses against unhappiness will do that also with fundamentalism.
This should make fundamentalism a real option for those who want to fight wars in the mid-game. However with -50% sci bonus it shouldn't be possible to use fundamentalism for the rest of the game. Also with extra trade point it would be possible to grow the economy.
Also, we should probably make few changes to the small wonders to that the governments would have more actual effect for the game.
* Mausoleum of Mausolos no longer prevents inciting the cities.
* Mausoleum of Mausolos costs 80 instead of 180.
* Mausoleum of Mausolos only makes city walls and courthouses to make one more content.
* Pyramids will cost 150 instead of 100.
* Statue of Zeus will be removed from the game or made available only in mid-game instead of early game.
The problem with the trade routes is basically the size of the map. With a big map one-time bonus from the routes becomes too big. Also, building the routes between two very distant cities gives too much bonus.
If there was a setting for max distance for trade routes, we might be able to use them but with the current settings we would only see the game becoming really unbalanced. There was an error with the ruleset for LT36 and the trade routes were on for that game. As a result the game became uninteresting for most people and players able to build caravans and transfer them to distant countries quickly managed to become way too powerful. It was possible to research several techs every turn and getting more than 20 000 of gold in a single turn.
If the abuse of the caravans could be prevented, we could restore the trade routes to the next game. Meanwhile we can only try to fix this by adding trade with wonders, buildings and specials.
All the suggestions for fixing the caravans are more than welcome.
LT37 is once again a game with islands. The another option is continents. We can change map size (tiles/player), the amount of mountains, hills, water etc...
Here are the current settings for LT37:
For example, with a team game adding the poles to the map wouldn't really make the game that unbalanced for the players starting next to the pole area.
In some games there has been more or less mountains/hills.
LT30 was probably the last game where it was possible to build a city on a mountain. A city on a mountain and a river would make it possible to use very different strategies.
Any LT game I know of ever used huts but if we want to speed up the start, adding huts might be possible for a team game.
The basic guidelines for creating games are really simple. A game should be balanced enough, but not too balanced. It can have some random elements but the random elements can't have too much weight. Something new is nice but stuff should be added for a reason.
Some thoughts not in particular order...
The .sav file loads fine. The rulesetdir needs to be changed to the one used by LT37 or to a new one using LT37 as the base ruleset with some modifications. What do you think, would there be issues with that? The scenario is designed for the classic ruleset. Do you think there are some advances, unit costs or something else that would make the scenario too different? The 2x moves and stuff like that needs to be changed of course, but in addition to that?
Maybe the map should be revealed in the start since it's already available to those who know how to load the .save file.
The initial cities could be bigger and maybe the techs should also be on the 1870 level?
Maybe a team game... But then again that time period is about the unification of Germany. Maybe also this wouldn't be a ranked game. This kind of scenario also sounds like a role game. Would be something new to LT even while doing some role stuff is something some people do on ranked LT games
Planning this stuff will take at least few months since usually nothing at LT happens overnight
Sciencebox back to 100
Something to make monarchy more interesting. In short: Federation has +5% sci output, communism low corruption (!!), despotism 20 units for martial law, tribalism 4 free units, democracy no bribing/inciting, fundamentalism special units and republic early boost to trade. Monarchy could use something else. For example some small wonder could be built only with monarchy. Some of the wonders we have in the game are related to monarchy, at least in some way. That way we would also have some logic to it. civ2civ3 is designed to make all the governments relevant during the entire game but monarchy has not been that popular because of the pyramids.
Another option would be making pyramids slightly harder to get. It could require some other useful building. In any case whatever change we decide to make it shouldn't be anything that would change the game too much.
check how the fundamentalism/crusaders actually worked in lt37
fran, good point. The base ruleset is civ2civ3.
LT37 was based on LT36 and that one was based on civ2civ3. The changes made to LT36 are still there unless they have been changed again for LT37. The changes can also be found on git. The git link is on LT37's game page:
You can ask about the details here on on the game chat. We may not remember why and how every exact change was made but we can try to figure it out
I'm not 100% sure but I think occupychance tells the probability of the attacking unit moving to the tile of the defending unit if the defending unit is destroyed. If the defending unit is inside a city and the defender dies, the city is not automatically conquered. This allows one player to empty the city and then let an ally to actually take it.
I doubt anyone here playing LT37 knows 100% of the ruleset. At least I don't even while I was one of the people designing the changes
We could run a test game for that. However the map should (probably) be made to work with the LT37 ruleset. Reducing the moves to 2x would be relatively easy. The reason why I would prefer LT37 ruleset as the base is that there are lots of changes a multiplayer game needs. Or maybe not really need but changes that are already tested.
Also notice that the game help appears to have an error with free units for tribalism. In the help it reads that there are 2 free units but there are actually 4 free units / city. This was changed for LT37 and now it looks like the game help is not dynamically generated but fixed text. That's why it's not updated.
All this was present when the game started. No new changes were made during the game. The changes were previously listed on git.
EDIT: LT37 is based on LT36. LT36 was based on Freeciv 2.5 civ2civ3 ruleset. The changes made for LT36 are included in LT37 unless overwritten during the edit process for LT37. You can check the details of LT37 ruleset from https://github.com/longturn/games/tree/master/LT37
The changes made for LT37:
The tech costs are the original costs with 100% sciencebox. For LT37 costs those need to be multiplied by 0.6.
- disabled caravan trading everywhere
- restored 3x moves of roads and rivers by using 9 move fragments (LT36 had 6 fragments)
- under despotism 20 units can bring martial law
- double upkeep and unhappiness free units for cities of size 8 or bigger
- allow (pre)fortress and airbase on terrain with rivers
- disable tech upkeep and change the free given tech to be the goal tech
- make caravans and freights upkeep free
- fixed steal bomber move rates
- allow sea units to attack from inside city and slow then down when damaged
- increased diplomat and spy veteran bonuses
- make jungle irrigation and mining times match the forest ones
- fixed help about factories giving 50% production bonus
- fusion units have shorter names
- new fusion unit: bomber
- fusion power gives sea units +9 moves
- magellan's expedition gives +3 moves (was 2)
- trade company gives trade bonus in all the owners cities
- occupy chance for cities is now 0% (was 100% in LT36)
- armor now has a firepower of 1 (was 2)
- landmass is 50 (was 30)
- specials = 200 (was 250)
- temperature = 50
- tilesperplayer = 320
- wetness = 50 (was 55)
- start units: 4 settlers (was 6), 6 workers (was 5) and one explorer
- sciencebox = 60 (was 90)
- settlers will need 2 population instead of 3 in LT36
- crusaders can only be built by fundamentalist nations
- crusaders can be built after getting navigation (was monotheism)
- crusaders: attack 2 (was 5), defense 2 (was 1), hitpoints 20 (was 10), moves 5 (was 6)
- crusaders are obsoleted by fanatics
- crusaders have no upkeep as long as the owner runs a fundamentalist nation
- crusaders cost 25
- polytheism is cheaper and requires 60 bulbs
- map making is cheaper and requires 45 bulbs
- elephants cost 22 (was 20)
- tribalism has 4 free units (was 2)
- workers are not capturable
- +5% science bonus for federation
- fanatics cost 25 (was 20)
- fusion battleship has 16 moves instead of 12
- isaac newton costs 400 (was 600)
- leonardo's workshop costs 200 and upgrades only 1 unit / turn
- king richard's crusade costs 200 (was 300)
- rocketry is less expensive to research: requires 300 bulbs (was 1770)
- nuclear fission requires 3600 bulbs (was 2310)
- fusion power requires 9000 bulbs (was 2310)
- stealth requires 4800 bulbs (was 2010)
- combined arms requires 4500 bulbs (was 1800)
- tactics requires 2400 bulbs (was 870)
- gunpowder requires 780 bulbs (was 540)
- guerilla warfare requires 600 bulbs (was 1440)
- doubled the cost of the space ship
- islands game
- the upkeep of amphitheater is 5
The changes we made for LT36:
(this is for those players who want to compare LT37 to LT36)
Aqueduct costs 40 instead of 60
Barracs I cost 60 instead of 30
Upkeep for barracks I is 1
Coastal defence costs 30 instead of 60
Factory costs 100 instead of 140
Marketplace costs 50 instead of 60
Mfg plant costs 140 instead of 240
SDI defense costs 240 instead of 160
Space component costs 480 instead of 320
space module costs 120 instead of 80
space structural costs 10
university costs 100 instead of 120
Apollo program is now a small wonder
A. Smiths costs 700 (was 800)
Colossus costs 80 (was 200)
Colossus is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Copernicus' Observatory is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Copernicus' Observatory costs 100 (was 300)
Cure for cancer costs 600 (was 1000)
Great library costs 300 (was 400)
Great wall costs 5000 (was 300)
Hanging gardens is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Hoover Dam is 6000 (was 600)
Isaac Newton's College costs 600 (was 400)
JS Back's cathedral costs 300 (was 400)
King Richards crusade is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Leonardo's Workshop is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Leonardo's Workshop costs 350 (was 400)
Lighthouse is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Magellan's Expedition is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Manhattan Project costs 1500 (was 600)
Marco Polo costs 600 (was 200)
Marco Polo increases trade 30% for everyone (did reduce the price of techs others had)
Trade Company is a new great wonder only Longturn has.
Trade Company can be only built by the player who owns Marco Polo
Trade Company costs 120 (no earlier cost since this is a LT specific wonder)
Trade Company gives the player and only the player owning it 10% boost to trade.
Marco Polo and Trade Company not obsoleted with any tech
Atlantic Telegraph Company costs 300
Atlantic Telegraph Company is a small wonder and it requires electricity
Atlantic Telegraph Company gives the player an embassy with every nation and will not be obsoleted
Michelangelo's chapel is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Michelangelo's chapel costs 800 (was 400)
Mausoleum of Mausolos costs 180 (was 200)
Statue of Zeus costs 150 (was 200)
Statue of Zeus is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Temple of artemis is a small wonder (was world wonder)
Temple of artemis costs 90 (was 200)
Pyramids is a small wonder (was great wonder)
Pyramids cost 100 (was 200)
Internet costs 3200 (was 600)
Statue of Liberty costs 8000 (was 400)
Sun Tzu's War Academy is a small wonder (was great wonder)
Sun Tzu's War Academy costs 600 (was 300)
United Nations cost 6000 (was 600)
Women's Suffrage is a small wonder (was great wonder)
Women's suffrage costs 1200 (was 600)
Courthouse costs 45 instead of 60
Nuclear power gives +3 moves to sea units (was +1)
Advanced flight give +9 moves to rockets (for example nukes) (was +8)
Monarchy base size is 20 (was 12)
Fundamentalism base size is 12 (was 20)
Factory gives +50% production bonus (was +25%)
All the granary effects now fill 50% of the foodbox when the city grows (Was 34 or 25% for bigger cities)
Mfg plant gives 50% production bonus (was 25%)
Power plants give 50% bonus (was 25%)
King Richard's give 1 free upkeep / city (was 2)
Leonardo's Workshop will upgrade 2 unist / turn (was 1 with Civ2Civ3 Freeciv2.5 but was 2 in the previous LT games)
Lighthouse gives 2 extra moves for ships
Lighthouse no longer makes veteran sea units
Magellan's expedition gives 2 extra moves for ships
Magellan's expedition requires navigation
Michelangelo's Chapel costing 600 instead of 800 on previous LT games
Mfg plant gives you a total of 4 build slots to a city (was 2)
Increased city working radius
No veteran levels are lost when upgrading a unit (was 1 level was lost)
Gold upkeep style is 1 (was actually 1 with civ2civ3 but was 2 with previous LT games. Changed because of an assertion warning)
Tech leakage 2 (rediced cost for every nation knowing the tech (was 1)
Tired attack = TRUE (was FALSE)
Base border radius from city 17 (was 5)
Tech upkeep divider 2000 (was 6000)
Citymindist = 4 (The minimum distance of cities was 3 with civ2civ3 but has been 5 with previous LT games except LT35 where it was
Added 2nd palace costing 150
Added 2nd palace: no bribing of the city, no civil waw when conquered, reduces waste and corruption like the actual palace
No inciting cities for fundamentalism
No irrigation for cities on hills with a mine (only +1 food)
Transform results changed to original Freeciv classic. The same settings (with few fixes) we had with LT34 and LT35. Basically allows
the players to transform mountains into something else and change ocean into land or land into ocean. See game help for exact options.
Added pre-forts. You need to have pre-fort before you can build an actual fort.
Pre-forts do no change ownership of the tile
Maglev rails gives unlimited moves, with rails you still get limited but faster moves
There are always at least roads on cities even if the tech has not been discovered yet.
Big Siege units can move natively on: desert, grassland, plains, hills and tundra. Can't move elsewhere without roads
No pollution on ocean
Basically 3x moves for most of the units.
There are now 9 veteran levels (was 3 with civ2civ3 but we had 9 in the previous LT games)
Increased veteran raise chances for military units: 65%, 60%, 55%, 50%, 45%, 30%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 0% The fist is green and the last is Elite 3
Veteran power factors: 100%, 150%, 175%, 200%, 225%, 250%, 275%, 300%, 325%, 350% The fist is green and the last is Elite 3
Veteran move bonus giving the number of additional 1/3 moves: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 13 The fist is green and the last is Elite 3
Added a new unit class for siege units (new for civ2civ3, we already had this in the previous LT games)
Merchant units have ZOC and can move on some terrain types without roads (moving without roads/rivers was not possible in the previous LT games)
Siege units can attack on non native tiles. May require keyboard commands for doing this! A client side restriction!
Settlers are NOT capturable
Settlers cost 3 population
Engineers cost 40 (was 30)
Phalanx costs 15 (was 20)
Legion is now called Swordsmen
Swordsmen are obsoleted by riflemen (were obsoleted by musks)
Pikemen cost 25 (was 30)
Musketeers no longer can attack from the sea (were able to do that in previous LT games and with civ2civ3)
Fanatics have attack and defense of 4 (was 5 and 5)
Fanatics no longer cost population
Paratroopers have a range of 15 (was 10) and this is not 3x as usual
Mech infantry costs 60 (was 70)
Horsemen cost 18 (was 20)
Elephants cost 20 (was 30)
Crusaders cost 25 (was 40)
Knights cost 25 (was 40)
Armor costs 80 (was 90)
Armor has attack of 8 and FP2. Was attack of 10 and FP2.
Armost has FP 1 (was 1 with civ2civ3 but was 2 in LT35)
Catapult, Cannon, Artillery and Howier now belong to the Big Siege units class.
Big Siege units can't be built as veterans
All big siege units will get double firepower when attacking cities
Catapult costs 30 (was 49)
Catapult has attack of 5 (was 6)
Catapult, cannon and artillery are capturable
Howizers are not capturable!
Howizer costs 70 (was 80)
Fighter costs 50 (was 60)
Fighter has a defense of 1 (was 2)
Fighter has 15 moves
Bomber has 24 moves
Helocopter costs 50 (was 70)
Stealth fighter has 25 moves
Triremes can now travel on rivers (was possible with civ2civ3 but not possible in the previous LT games)
Triremes will get obsoleted only after inventing transports (engineering)
Triremes cost 20 (was 40)
Caravel will cost 30 (was 40)
Galleon will cost 40 (was 50)
Frigate will cost 40 (was 50)
Ironclad will cost 55 (was 60)
Ironclad will have 11 moves (was 4 in civ2civ3 and was 12 in LT34 and previous games)
Destroyer will cost 60 (was 80)
Cruiser will cost 65 (was 90)
Cruiser has attack of 4 and defense of 8 (had attack and defense 6)
Aegis cruiser will cost 75 /was 100)
Battleship will cost 150 (was 160)
Battleship will have attack and defense of 18 (were both 12)
Battleship will have firepower of 2 (was 1)
Submarine will cost 50 (was 70)
Submarine will have defense of 4 (was 5) and attack will remain 12
Transports needed for moving big siege units
Cruise missile will cost 20 (was 40)
Cruise missile is less powerful (attack was 18, is now 10)
Cruise missile will have 9 moves (was 12 with civ2civ3) meaning no 3x moves
Diplomats and Spies are not partially invisible as they are with civ2civ3
AWACS will have 35 moves (was 16) meaning no full 3x. About 40 moves + elite 3 promotion is the max the game can use with these settings
LT Specific Fision units: Fusion fighter (38 moves), battleship and armor. See the game help. You can build these after getting the full tech tree.
Frigates will be obsoleted by destroyers
750 land tiles / player
Sciencebox = 90 (All techs will cost 80% of the original cost)
Switching the research target will cot 10%
All the players begin the game on one continent and there *should* be empty islands and a continent taking about 30-40% of the land area.
Air lifting is allowed to allies.
Air lifting allows unlimited number of units to dest city and one unit / from source city / turn
There is no tech trading
Techs can be stolen (5% chance with a spy or a diplo if there are no defending diplos or spies)
Techs can be stolen by conquest (10% chance for that to happen if the city is conquered)
The cost for giving gold is 10%
Citymindist is 4 meaning that there needs to be 3 tiles (any direction) between the cities and the new city can be found on the 4th tile (This was 5 on LT34 and 4 on LT35)
Caravans can't establish trade routes (was like this in the pervious LT games)
Space race victory is enabled and the game will end if a space ship reaches the target
There is no rapture growth
There are no huts and no barbarians
Revolution length is 2 turns
There is a 10% chance a building will get destroyed if a city is conquered
Base chance for diplomacy is 50%
Halved the probability of civil wars. See the game help
Gold upkeep style = 1
Start units: 6 settlers, 5 workers and an explorer
Actually... How about this? We could do a team game with 3 player teams and only 2 teams could win the game. but... those players who feel super confident could start with only 2 or even 1 player teams.
This would also make the alliances half visible to everyone since everyone knows the teams but can't really know who is allying who.
How does Maho's algorithm work? I can't remember the details but as far as I can recall it sounded something we could try.
We could also do another two team game like we had with LT35. This time without pooled research.
Or we could do a game with small teams. I'm not sure if this was done before or not. With small teams we could use 3 player teams with maybe 2-3 teams able to win the game. With 30 players that would mean 6-9 winners.
Every game is different. However the ruleset can be changed to make the games longer or maybe even end in a very short time.
LT37 will probably last something between 120-150 turns.
How would you like to have LT38? Shorter? Lasting longer? How many turns would be ideal?
We can for example make the late techs cost more or change the amount of tech leakage. Or something else.
Some player replacements have been made:
Edrim was replaced with elpollodiablo (elpollodiablo players the Pashtuns since T0)
Randesady was replaced with luke7658 (Randesady was an idler since T0)
The replacement was chosen by a person not playing the game.
Good luck with LT37!
There are 3 more idlers left.
Please reply here if you want to replace one of the (probable) idlers.
We have one player waiting and there are currently 4 players who have not logged in. They may login but if they haven't logged in by T3 we can replace them.
In addition to the idlers one player (edrim->elpollodiablo) has delegated his nation, apparently permanently, and the actual player replacement will be done at the same time as the idler replacements.
The game was saved every hour and is now restored. If you made moves just before before the server went down, please make those moves again.
The game was resumed from T0 and T0 is extended to 103 hours from now. We will check if least most players have been able to connect and make their moves. This means that T1 will happen in about 4 days from now.
Sorry about the inconvenience. The server has been stable for a long time and it was coincidence that it went down just when we had started LT37.
We could have a team game or a teamless one. Continents, islands or even a custom map if one is found and it's not too much effort to set it up.
LT38 will be based on LT37.
If there are not too many "features" with the LT37 ruleset we will probably need or want only few modifications and the next game may start sooner.
If a team game is chosen we should try to figure out how to choose teams. A two team game might be an easy one but we could also do an "usual" 5-6 team game. Even team game with 3 players on each team was suggested once.
You can also suggest modifications to the units, costs and stuff.
I don't see a problem there as long as people know you are playing together. This is of course my personal opinion and not the collective opinion or any kind of administration decision.
If people knowing each other and/or living together want to play it makes sense for them to play. We might want to make more some kind of team games if this would become really common but with few "home team" players playing together hardly seems any trouble.
Unfortunately LT37 has just started so he needs to wait for LT38. The forum for LT38 will be opened shortly and this time there shouldn't be too much delay between the games. The current ruleset should need much less changes for the next game. Hopefully only minor changes quick and easy to make.