#1 LT40 » 3050 BCE Herodotus reports on the most ADVANCED Civilizations in the W » Today 12:58:19

Replies: 0

The reports from T20.

3050 BCE Herodotus reports on the most ADVANCED Civilizations in the World.

1: The Supreme Ainu
2: The Supreme Slavs
3: The Supreme Yakuts
4: The Great East Germans
5: The Great Byzantines
6: The Great Ohlone
7: The Great Poles
8: The Great Chananeans
9: The Distinguished Romans
10: The Distinguished Catalans
11: The Distinguished Britons
12: The Distinguished Antarcticans
13: The Distinguished Sami
14: The Distinguished Asturians
15: The Distinguished Comanches
16: The Distinguished Vikings
17: The Distinguished Zimbabweans
18: The Distinguished Filipinos
19: The Valueless Palatinate Germans
20: The Valueless Lebanese
21: The Valueless Manchus
22: The Valueless Confederates
23: The Valueless Seminoles
24: The Wretched Spanish

#2 Re: LT40 » How to create a super city with tons of production, sci and gold? » Yesterday 15:02:25

No need for granaries if you use migrants. You can get to size 5 without granaries. Another option is to get to size 4 and then use 4 migrants to make the city size 8. That allows you to run the city few turns with negative food while not starving and losing population.

Once you grow beyond size 8 you will need granaries. That may be done at a later time since what you really want is the pyramids. The pyramids will make it possible to grow really fast and also get really nice production from the pyramids city. The pyramids actually work like ancient factory. With the pyramids the capital city, if built there, can get up to 9 more shields every turn. That's like 20-30% boost to your production in the early game.

Building the pyramids is the top priority if you are not going to go monarchy as fast as possible.

#3 Re: LT41 » Granary sizes? » 10.12.2017 19:18:37

Right. I changed that too many times and missed that one.


granary_food_ini = 12, 16, 20, 25, 30,  36, 42, 50

I haven't tested it but as suggested, might make sense to increase the size even after size 50. Maybe not that much but some more. Like

granary_food_ini = 12, 16, 20, 25, 30,  36, 42, 50, 54, 56, 58, 60

Then again this would remove the rapture like effect. Another approach might be

granary_food_ini = 12, 16, 20, 24, 28,  32, 36, 40, 44, 46, 48, 50

#4 Re: LT41 » New city improvements? » 10.12.2017 19:08:35

Many hands smile

Would be cool to allow more ways to build the empire. Now there is nothing wrong with taking the current paths but some alternate routes might not do harm if they wouldn't unbalance the game. In the commercial civs there are religious elements or more of those. Probably not possible to add that will ruleset changes but it might be possible to have a religious building A that will make some other building working not that well. Or the other way around. Religion here is only an example as there are so many ways to build a society.

There was a joke about a "poison pill" wonder. In that joke it was the Berlin Wall wonder the player can't destroy without destroying the city. It was supposed to give the owner -20% or more penalty for trade. That made me think about economic wars. Would it be possible and make sense to do some kind of anti marco polo hurting the world economy. I have absolutely no idea what this would actually be or how to implement it but real life examples include some financial crisis. There is actually this kind of stuff with global warming and nuclear winter but nothing on the economical/scientific side. This is currently just a thought.

The growth suggestion for despotism/tribalism might work. I'll need to let that sink in and return to it at a later time. A big change and could actually work if properly implemented.

Nationalism was actually added with that thought about making the early gov usable in the late game. The first suggestion was to add a wonder to make tribalism relevant again but that change was said to be kind of clumsy or not that elegant. Instead the idea was turned into a new gov with new kind of advantages and downsides. I guess the same could be done to some other early gov if wonders are not the way to do it. That way it's not completely unrealistic.

#5 Re: LT41 » New city improvements? » 10.12.2017 18:16:13

You may be right about adding too much stuff. The greenhouse and forge improvements were attempts to let the players to have different routes to building the great empires but now when I think about it, something like greenhouse or artificial food sources do very little in the late game and those would really be needed only in the early game. Not being able to build everything, on the other hand, is kind of another way at letting the players to choose the best path. In some previous games the idea with higher cost small wonders was to prevent the players from building everything. Or maybe not prevent but let them to make choices. Is it reasonable to build a happiness wonder or some economic one. The small wonders used to be more expensive.

Anyway, if it feels like there is too much stuff already, there may be too much stuff. I'm guessing that some of the improvements LT40 has will be removed if they do not work well or make the game less interesting to play. LT40 now has all the stuff but some of it may be removed. This happened with Zeus and Mausolos. Nice stuff but made the governments too similar in the end.

Another example is the pyramids. After all it may not be such a good idea to split it into two different wonders. The actual issue is the penalty with despotism/tribalism which makes the early game a race towards something that will remove that penalty. I'm not sure what could or should be done to it but the current setup kind of makes the early game always the same. Might be interesting if it would be possible to have slightly different kind of goals in addition to switching to monarchy or building the pyramids. Or maybe that's not really a problem smile

#6 Re: ScenarioGame 1 » Feedback » 10.12.2017 16:36:28

I didn't play but the tech speed was kind of accidentally left that fast because the setting is on the .sav file and not on the server settings. We can fix that for the next game. The same goes for tech trading. I'm guessing that it should be turned off?

Very hard to prevent alliances but one way could be making the future game one where is only one winner. This of course doesn't guarantee or prevent the players from allying but it's a start. Maybe smile

#7 Re: LT41 » New city improvements? » 10.12.2017 15:49:05

Ecole Militaire could be valid only for a short period of time maybe. Or perhaps it should have another name if it would better suit in the early game instead mid game?

#8 Re: LT41 » New city improvements? » 10.12.2017 15:47:53

Nice smile

I should read the entire thread so I wouldn't be re-inventing the wheel smile

#9 Re: LT39 » There will be a Christmas break » 10.12.2017 13:57:10

Not sure if a break is really needed but it has been a tradition. Maybe we will do a 3*23h break starting from December 24th. In the past some people have been busy with something else. And unfortunateky not everyone tells that a break is needed.

Also depends of how akfaew is around. The turns need to be extended by hand.

#10 LT41 » Granary sizes? » 10.12.2017 13:29:23

Replies: 3

LT40 currently has these granary sizes.

granary_food_ini = 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 30, 40, 50

This is to make it easier to grow cities in the start and it looks like working reasonably well. Would it be too much if it was like this.

granary_food_ini = 12, 16, 20, 26, 30,  36, 42, 50

Any obvious problems?

#11 Re: LT41 » New city improvements? » 10.12.2017 13:15:28

What about some kind of greenhouse building giving the city tile one more food? Might be too much but the upkeep could be high.

#12 Re: LT41 » The pyramids as two separate small wonders? » 10.12.2017 13:03:33

Yeah, the govs are kind of a mess but it my view they try to represent the main idea or ideology of a nation. For example with despotism there can be capitalistic features but the nation is ruled by the despot With communism the actual rulers could be anyone (even while usually the communist party) but stuff is owned by the people. With nationalism there can be capitalistic or some kind of another economy system but the most powerful factor is the nationalistic ideology. The nationalism has more effect than capitalistic or communistic economy system. Not sure if I'm able to explain this really...

From in-game perspective it might be nice to have more options for different kind of play styles. Some that could be used for certain types of situations. You might want to use different kind of gov when you try to push science. And maybe some different ind of gov for pushing economy. Now the best (or kind of best) gov for both of those is Democracy.

Some gov could be one where the max rate for sci/tax/lux is 40%. That would be the downside and there could be something that would make this worth using on some situations.

#13 LT41 » New city improvements? » 10.12.2017 12:48:04

Replies: 9

École Militaire (War School) or probably just as Ecole Militaire to make the text safe for everyone. This small wonder would give the units additional veteran level. Together with barracks the units produced from this city would be vv and with Sun Tsu the units would be vvv. It would also keep three units content even if the unhappiness is caused by military units.

Forge. This is the ancient version of the factory. It will give the city centre +2 production bonus.  However the trick is that even while this is not a small wonder, it would be obsoleted once the player is able to build factories. There is also a reasonably high upkeep of 1 gold for this city improvement making it much less powerful compared to the factory. It would be worth building in cities with not that high waste and corruption. The cost for this city improvement would not be that high.

#14 Re: LT41 » The pyramids as two separate small wonders? » 10.12.2017 11:51:27

Some ideas...

More food with tribalism sounds kind of reasonable if combined with smaller city sizes. Maybe the easiest way to implement this would be keeping the free units for tribalism but maybe even removing the ability to keep the citizens content with military units. Not sure really but one option.

Marduk also suggested something that would focus on gold production and trade. Maybe something like this:


Maybe there would be a super high penalty for any kind of war?

While the alpha centauri style government options are not possible we could use some new govs. Not sure what those could be really... From the wikipedia there are few options.


Not all of those could and should be added but maybe something could be worked out from them. I kind of would like to see some govs that would be useful for a short period of time. The revolution time with one turn helps switching. One gov could  turn the libraries, universities etc into happiness buildings and reduce or remove the happiness effect from temples, amphitheaters etc.

Now I wonder what would be the gov for the current regime of China?

All this of course only to the more experimental game. 

What also makes adding more govs more difficult is that we don't really want to take political stand here. Also makes it kind of tricky to make the help texts. For example nationalism is kind of hot topic now in Finland and apparently also in many other countries. Because of that it was kind of obvious addition but also needed more careful editing for the help. It's not about just one era or nation while there are some very famous nations with the focus on this type of gov.

#15 LT40 » How to create a super city with tons of production, sci and gold? » 10.12.2017 10:18:39

Replies: 2

This is preferably your capital city. Having hills close to it is good. Having it on a hills is also good. Mine the hills close to this city. You should do the work for this city first and leave the other cities for a later time.

And really, the libraries are important in the mid game but give very little in the early stage. The cities need to be big to make building libraries worthwhile. A library cost 60 and that's kind of worth 120 gold. A size 4 city may give you 4 sci and with a library you would get 2 more. Not that good.

Instead if a player builds 3 workers for that 60 shields, there can be roads, mines and all kind of stuff. Defensive units can reach the action soon enough. It may feel weird not to build improvements in the start but building stuff like workers instead will pay off smile

And maybe getting bronze working if you are in a risk of being attacked. A phalanx is just barely more expensive but twice as powerful defender

The same actually goes for markets. No need to build those really in the early game. Getting trade as the tech is pretty much more than anyone can get from a market at this time. Not sure about the optimal value but if you get less than 10 gold from a city then it's probably not worth it to build a market.

How to get a city where to build wonders and get the ma profit from them?

If the city has wheat or lake fish as the food source, let it grow to size 5. Letting it to grow beyond that makes no sense without a granary building. Then again building a granary building makes no sense in the early game. Instead when the city hits size 5, build 3 migrants on other cities and use those to make the city size 8. That way your big city can focus on producing science and shields and leave the settler production and growth to other cities. never build a settler in this city. you want it big. If you are not going to get monarchy as soon as possible, build the pyramids in this city. It's the top priority for the big city.

After pyramids build colossus and after that Copernicus also keep the big city happy with units. Warriors will do fine but remember to replace the warriors with phalanxes as soon as possible. you don't want to lose this city. After getting Copernicus, build a library to that city. If you don't need techs fast, build first market and only then library.

Maybe at a later time you may want to build there aqueduct, Malbork Castle and House of Peasants. These buildings make it possible to make that city size 20 really fast. Malbork castle almost removes the need to build temples and other happiness wonders. House of Peasants let the city to use the far away tiles and this is important for your best city. It will make this city huge, powerful and your pride smile

Then build city walls (if not earlier) and also underground tunnels. This with few good defensive units will make the city almost invincible.

This is of course only one path you can take but I guess it's not that bad one smile

Feel free to comment on this.

#16 Re: LT41 » The pyramids as two separate small wonders? » 08.12.2017 08:38:47

Actually... people often say that the first techs are researched too fast. At least once the tech leak starts kicking in. It's just about now starting to do that on LT40. Probably also on LT39. There could be a research penalty for both despotism and tribalism. Nothing like fundamentalism has but maybe 10%? Also since tribalism is probably more free as you say, despotism could have tax rates as they are now, at 60% and tribalism could have maybe 50%. This would also make tribalism on the same line with nationalism, which is kind of later time tribalism. Also there would not be production penalty. Maybe removing the research penalty once you get writing?

#17 Re: LT41 » The pyramids as two separate small wonders? » 07.12.2017 20:29:09

Actually might not be a bad idea if Trade would cancel the production penalty from everyone. Anyone getting trade.

It's not that bad if there is a goal to race towards to in the early game. Something other than war. However building 20 or even 30 turns pyramids or getting monarchy is maybe not ideal. Maybe 8-12 turns for an average player?

#18 Re: LT41 » The pyramids as two separate small wonders? » 07.12.2017 14:25:58

Good idea, but there is too often the but. I'm not certain if it's possible not to have a palace in the start. Or actually, maybe it's possible if the automatic rebuilding of the palace is turned off.

I'll look into it.

#19 Re: LT41 » The pyramids as two separate small wonders? » 07.12.2017 12:52:18

Could be 100... The pyramids are now 160 on LT40 and 100 on LT39. Might be too cheap at least on LT39 but that's how it has been in the last few games.

#20 LT41 » The pyramids as two separate small wonders? » 06.12.2017 18:01:47

Replies: 20

This is probably another not that good idea, but what about having two different small wonders instead of one? One to remove the despotism/tribalism penalty and one for getting the production boost you get from the pyramids. The pyramids now cost 160 in LT40 but the penalty removing one could cost something like 120 and the other one with production boost 80.

You could decide which one to build first or leave one not built if you go for monarchy instead.

I'm writing this down here just for the comments even while I have my doubts about doing something like this.

#21 LT41 » Adding academy to the game » 06.12.2017 14:53:23

Replies: 0

New non military units will be built as veterans. The cost of this improvement was 60 on LT31 but maybe it should be something like 40.

#22 LT39 » There will be a Christmas break » 06.12.2017 12:58:06

Replies: 4

This will be implemented by extending one turn. The extended turn should start around 24th December and last 3 turns. Or it could start 23rd December and last 4 turns.


#23 LT40 » There will be a Christmas break » 06.12.2017 12:57:41

Replies: 3

This will be implemented by extending one turn. The extended turn should start around 24th December and last 3 turns. Or it could start 23rd December and last 4 turns.


#24 Re: New Games » CityMinDist, city working area and its influence on strategies » 06.12.2017 12:53:38

The flat corruption+waste level for all the govs comes from civ2civ3 ruleset. In LT40 there are gov specific units so that they no longer are the same. Some wonders like Mausoleum of Mausolos were also removed. That one made the governments too similar by removing the ability to incite cities.

With the rapture there are lots of problems with making some govs too powerful. If you don't go republic early, you will lose. There is almost no way around it. The new granary sizes in LT games replace the rapture by making it possible to grow relatively fast. Not every turn but every second anyway. Also growing fast has a heavy penalty for production. You usually need to use grassland.

#25 LT39 » Server hardware restart » 05.12.2017 19:39:56

Replies: 0

I was just informed that the actual game server hardware may be needed to rebooted. not sure when this happens but could happen soon. if there is a more than a short break the turn will be extended so that everyone is able to play the turn.

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