#1 04.07.2018 15:17:53

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 106

Some other tech tree tweaks

Civ tech tree, from its beginnings, always had some flaws and weirdness.
Some were fixed in civ2civ3 or LT rulesets, but some still exists.

1. Republic need Literacy and Code of Laws, but Literacy also need Code of Laws - there is a shortcut, Republic is very easy to access.
Real republics were created by wealthy patrician, thus Literacy+Trade should create Republic.
EDIT: trade is used for Banking, thus Currency+Literacy=Republic

2. Gun powder in classic ruleset was very easy to achieve. Now it is harder, but still chivalry is obsolete. Some intermittent knowledge is needed, for example Alchemy (Medicine or Chemistry would also use it). 

3. Egalitarianism or something similar is needed between University and Democracy.  Slavery Abolition wonder enabled by Egalitarianism would convert unhappy citizen into happy one in each town, but decrease income.

4. Electricity should originated from Railroad, not directly from Metallurgy (need to have steam engine first), but would give hydro-energy (except Hoover Dam enabled by Electronics as usual). 

5. Whole modern techs need to be tweaked, Generic Engineering and Fission are to easy to access, original game was created in last century, there is lack of modern techs like nanotechnology, or future techs like antimatter (would be used for these fussion weapons).

I will post proposal of tweaked ruleset here later. Not sure if I should use civ2civ3 ruleset or LT one?

Last edited by Wahazar (04.07.2018 16:32:53)

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#2 04.07.2018 17:21:46

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 763

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

I'm a great proponent of realism in Civ, but in this aspect, I think the most important thing with the tech tree is that it obeys rules of playability and game logic. The reason is that, if you go for realism, you have to employ a MILLION changes and you won't get proportionally closer to the ideal. Techs are just tokens used to create other stuff. Rearranging them wouldn't contribute much to a better game. Hell, for all I care, we could use numbers to identify them, nothing would change.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against any changes that may make the game more realistic. But you need to ask yourself how much is a given change actually improving the game and how much is it actually making it just technically different, but not necessarily better.

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#3 04.07.2018 18:25:25

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 106

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

Of course, I keep in mind playability. My proposals are not about inserting bunch of detailed techs just because they are more realistic, but to provide better balance (realism is only a side effect).
Good balance is, when you have choice between some variants of progression, bad balance is when one choice guarantee supremacy, other one result in fall of your civilisation.

Just read p.1 - there is obviously bug for Republic req. The only explanation is, that you can't trade Literacy and start Republic without Code of Laws, but such assertion can be now done using root_req flag.

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#4 04.07.2018 19:06:28

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 763

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

Wahazar wrote:

Just read p.1 - there is obviously bug for Republic req. The only explanation is, that you can't trade Literacy and start Republic without Code of Laws, but such assertion can be now done using root_req flag.

Can you explain this? I'm not sure what you mean.

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#5 04.07.2018 22:03:09

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 106

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

Corbeau wrote:
Wahazar wrote:

Just read p.1 - there is obviously bug for Republic req. The only explanation is, that you can't trade Literacy and start Republic without Code of Laws, but such assertion can be now done using root_req flag.

Can you explain this? I'm not sure what you mean.

Republic require Literacy and Code of Laws, but Literacy also require Code of Laws, hence (assuming that no tech trade occurs), Republic require only Literacy.

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#6 05.07.2018 10:35:39

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 763

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

Well you still have to research Code of Laws.

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#7 05.07.2018 11:15:01

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 1,541

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

Ar far as I remember there is a problem with setting all the root reqs and using too much those would take too much computer resources. I think that stuff is fixed on 2.6.

The realism is an important part of the game but not really from the point of view of simulating the real word. The realism will make it  more easy for the players to feel like they are emperors and they are leading a nation.

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#8 05.07.2018 12:52:05

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 763

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

wieder wrote:

Ar far as I remember there is a problem with setting all the root reqs and using too much those would take too much computer resources. I think that stuff is fixed on 2.6.

The person I heard it from (Monamipierrot, I think) also said that it was a test ruleset with many other things changed and maybe it was something else causing the delays. Cold have also been a slow server.

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#9 05.07.2018 13:46:40

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 1,541

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

I think I heard that from the devs. Might make sense to check if it's really fixed for 2.6 since if that's the case it might be just extra work for the few last 2.5 games.

One way to slow down the late game techs would be adding more techs there by splitting techs to several smaller ones.

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#10 05.07.2018 14:35:48

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 106

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

Maybe these root_req are too restrictive - they check all previous tech until tier 0. It produce large "family tree", which maybe can slow down server. It would be suitable to check only root_req's, not req's chain - in such case there are no branches of such chain.

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#11 18.07.2018 16:49:47

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 106

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

For the record: my ideas evolved here:
http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=90375

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#12 19.07.2018 11:22:18

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 1,541

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

Chivalry really is quite pointless. Maybe gunpowder should be available at a later time compared to chivalry.

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#13 19.07.2018 13:21:36

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 106

Re: Some other tech tree tweaks

wieder wrote:

Chivalry really is quite pointless. Maybe gunpowder should be available at a later time compared to chivalry.

This is a one of a reasons, why I created advanced ruleset.
In case of default ruleset, bulb ratio for gunpowder/chivalry was 2.7, steam engine/chivalry 5, now it is 4 and 9.2.
And not only bulb ratio is important, also width of the tech tree (while making steam, you have techs common for gunpowder "free").

By the way, Knights, Cavalry etc make a sense when artillery have a "Bombarder" flag, otherwise why their usage is limited.
I tested Corbeau idea on the singleplayer and found some parameters which provide good balance for bombarding units.

Last edited by Wahazar (19.07.2018 13:23:10)

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