#1 25.05.2013 12:03:23

Xercise
Player
Posts: 95

LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Dear fellow players,

Thanks to Bardo for a great ruleset, akfaew for doing the admin and to all the great battles of LT31... Cheers!

To the point:

We've all fought well and some better than others; I sense that many players would like their efforts to be reflected in their ranking - I am not writing this for personal gain, in fact I kind of like being underestimated wink

So, some questions and suggestions:

1. How can we recognise the good players from LT31 and reflect that in their rankings?
2. Who can claim victory?

Suggestions:

1. Kryon is in charge of rankings, I believe - could you figure out a way to recognise all the players (less idlers) who have survived LT31?
2. That the top 7 scorers (less idlers and delegated nations) of LT31 be recognised as winners

I think we all have spent a lot of time on this game, so please be succinct and constructive in your replies.

Cheers, Xercise

PS: According to end game stats these would be the top 7 scorers (less idlers and delegated nations):

1. Dimitril 1506
2. Akfaew 1416
3. Wieder 1037
4. Xercise 847
5. Viznut 795
6. Grendel 743
7. Kryon 732

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#2 25.05.2013 12:21:06

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

If more than N/10 (alive) players claim victory by turn 180, the game will be ended without any winners.

How about understanding this poll. Is it anything about winning for top scorers? If i knew that i could try to be in top score by takeing techs from my allies and pump my score to be in best 7.
What wrong with delegated nations for you?
Try to fit in poll results in trying to get winners of this game if you need and dont make new rules. For now we have two winners who want claim vistory in specyfic topic, it is not right topic because they still have to make topic with winner list and claim win with all of his ally but it is good start for discussion about wining this game.

Should i took more then n/10 alive players and make a winning post with them? Is it enough for official draw?

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#3 25.05.2013 16:07:36

Marduk
Administrator
From: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 141

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

An earlier version of the ranking list included the following situations: winner; surviving+top50% score; surviving+bottom50% score; dead; idle. Problem is that for earlier games we don't have this information. But I'd be all for re-introducing this whenever possible.

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#4 25.05.2013 16:45:26

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

First of all,  for the sake of fairness, the rules for winning the game can only be set before the game starts and should not be changed during or after the game.

For this game to have winners, a maximum of 7 players should claim victory AND all other surviving players should agree. Since this won't happen, LT31 has no official winners.

The rankings will not change except for players for whom LT31 was their 2nd game will now have their ranking scores displayed.

I took a snapshot of the final statistics and I am going to post it in the forum to recognize the best players.

In future games, we can decide on different rules for deciding winners but I really do not like the idea of using in-game scores to decide the winners because in-game scores usually do not represent who contributed most. Best way to decide on winners is an alliance/team killing all others or (convincing them to surrender). However to discourage large number of nations allying and killing other small alliances we usually limit alliance size. And to encourage large alliances to eventually break and fight each other we decided having a time limit in LT31. However, since the map was huge, 180 turns was not enough for 7 players to win the game. LT32 will be a team game so we won't need an alliance limit and therefore we won't need a time limit either.

Last edited by Kryon (25.05.2013 16:59:47)

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#5 25.05.2013 17:11:56

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Here are the final statisctics of LT31:

lt31scores.jpg

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#6 25.05.2013 17:48:39

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Kryon poll state clearly players need to claim victories. Some players may not want to claim victories for many reasons.

Many Church members agreed they would stay silent and let the best members win. That did not stop them from seeking glory but they had survival as a priority back then. Some others may want to show they are good players who know they weren't in a winning position.

So far there is only 2 claim to victory.

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#7 25.05.2013 17:57:11

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Claiming victory is not enough. ALL other surviving players should agree to defeat. This was not explicitly stated in the poll but it is clearly stated in the general LT rules.

But if you guys are saying that according to the poll claiming victory is enough than I also claim victory smile But even in that case, I am certain more than 7 alive players will claim victory and game will have no winners.

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#8 25.05.2013 19:10:25

Xercise
Player
Posts: 95

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Thanks for the screenshot, Kryon! That shows who the survivors were and will help LT32 team leaders to pick...

Although I love to play competitively and always try to win somehow, I do NOT claim victory in LT31. In fact, you (Kryon) and Mmm2 could have wiped me out back in T118 if it was not for Dimitril coming to my rescue, so this is completely ok for me.

I would like to post a tentative list of the 7 players I think are worthy and that I nominate for claiming official victory for the rankings sake. I think we should all nominate and be open to discussing each other's nominations, and changing such lists if some nominated victors also forfeit their claim - if a clear list starts to emerge, then we can vote in one last poll if that makes sense. Here are my nominations:

Dimitril
Akfaew
Joris and/or Edrim (I guess it's fair since Edrim controlled Joris by delegation in the end, and Joris would have been the hardest player to wipe out at the end)
Wieder
Grendel
Kryon
and Tuhin if only one of Joris/Edrim chooses to claim (Viznut had a higher score than Tuhin, but from my experience Tuhin was a key organiser of game play and had only slightly less score)

I think we can all be good sportsmen and let some players that care a lot about rankings get some points - it's better than letting this game not count for anyone, don't you think? Otherwise, the rankings are not being updated in anyway (other than what you already mentioned).

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#9 25.05.2013 22:43:16

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

It make a lot more sense to receive victory claim. Idler who survived won't come here to say anything. As far as I know, silence means consent.

So far we have 3 claim. Kryon, Dimitril, Grendel.

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#10 25.05.2013 23:46:53

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 811

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

This sounds nice.

How long are we waiting for players to claim for victory? Until over 7 players has been reached or maybe sooner?

Maybe someone should make a poll for a time limit for claiming a victory? If there is no such thing.

Maybe 3*23 hours since the last turn would be a valid time since that's the limit for showing that someone is idling in the game?

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#11 26.05.2013 00:23:35

det0r
Player
Posts: 166

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

It amuses me that you guys are all ignoring the rules that have been in place since before I started playing LT (around 5 years ago) because of your massive alliance.. The rules have always been that surviving players MUST AGREE to people claiming victory, SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT.

As Kryon said, there probably won't be any winners for LT31. Maybe next time you will keep your alliance size smaller than or equal to the max winners, and then there will be some clear winners? I have no qualms with you all posting what your score was at end-game, but it's not an official victory unless you can win within the rules smile

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#12 26.05.2013 00:51:08

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 811

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

I see.

Where in LT rules does it say that idling equals saying yes or no? I'm referring to the poll about 7 players claiming victory.

If you are claiming to be the 4th winner, please do so.

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#13 26.05.2013 01:57:22

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

I do not care about alliance size since it was agreed there would be 7 winners in the alliance. If silence is not consent, it is not disagreement or claiming victory either.

Quite simply, if you care, you can claim victory. At best you win, at worsts the game is a draw. Do you think Trashkiller disagree because he said nothing? He have been idling for mouths, asking for him and the likes to agree is ridiculous. You can stop inventing rules that are not written. The fact you are just angry because you faced an alliance larger than yours is transparent and childish. We cannot do a pool and vote winners, everyone could vote including dead players. We have to settle this on the forum. The effort to come here and claim victory is nothing in comparison of playing a 6 mouths game.

In fact, I reread the pool Kryon wrote. Written like it is, the game should still be on.

Last edited by Dimitril (26.05.2013 01:58:58)

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#14 26.05.2013 05:35:00

det0r
Player
Posts: 166

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

wieder wrote:

I see.

Where in LT rules does it say that idling equals saying yes or no? I'm referring to the poll about 7 players claiming victory.

If you are claiming to be the 4th winner, please do so.

http://longturn.org/rules/
5. Declaring victors

3. A teamless game can be won by one player, or an alliance formed by a number of players no bigger than was agreed upon before the game started, by either:
- Military defeat of all other players.
^ this has not happened
- Winning the space race (if enabled).
^ this did not happen
- Surrender - all other live players have surrendered.
^ this has not happened (unless all living players agree to the 7 who have claimed victory - which is what I was referring to, at what point did I mention idlers?)
- Another condition, agreed upon before the game started.
^ no other conditions were agreed upon before the game started - coming up with something that suits you on the forum after the game has ended is not within the rules.


Dimitril wrote:

The fact you are just angry because you faced an alliance larger than yours is transparent and childish.

Yes, I am angry. People come in here and ignore the rules which have been developed over several years (7+) and a large number of games (more than 30). I have only been here since LT15, but I have played by the rules since joining the community. Quite a few members of your alliance played well, I'm not claiming otherwise, but recent games have resulted in people forming ridiculously large alliances and it begs the question of why we even bother discussing and voting upon such rules if they can just be ignored?

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#15 26.05.2013 06:20:40

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

I agree that if someone does not object it means consent BUT if more than 7 players claim victory OR if even 1 surviving player disagree with the victory claims then there are no winners. There were around 35 surviving players so it is very unlikely that7 or less players claiming victory. Even if it magically happens, there is certainly going to be at least 1 surviving player objecting.

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#16 26.05.2013 07:14:05

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Reread this pool: http://longturn.org/poll/43/

It says players need to claim victory. I don't know if that was what he had in mind but that's what is written and there is nothing about claiming victory in the rules. So we are dealing with another condition stated before the game started. I do agree Xercise is in no right to proclaim victories of others or base it on score. The same way you are in no right to justify yourself because you have been here since what ever time.

Now Kryon see things as I do. 8 or more players claiming victories are likely but as not happen yet. Disagreeing is also an option. It would bring nothing else to someone except some anger and some bad reputation. But that would be a good troll I guess.

Kryon as ranking admin you should decide for how long claim for victory and stuff will stay open.

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#17 26.05.2013 07:22:19

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Kryon wrote:

I agree that if someone does not object it means consent BUT if more than 7 players claim victory OR if even 1 surviving player disagree with the victory claims then there are no winners. There were around 35 surviving players so it is very unlikely that7 or less players claiming victory. Even if it magically happens, there is certainly going to be at least 1 surviving player objecting.

I agree. And we dont have a winning post yet.

I am strongly against puting me on any wining/best list. Delegation is a form born in hudge flame war, it is good form, when any player delegated to other player it is not changeing his state ingame (maybe long term delgation, i was too lazy to start thread about it this time), when i took delegation from Joris, nation of Joris didnt change his owner and i didnt get his power (my nation) so it is misunderstanding fo delegation form to common me with Joris in any list. But it is missunderstanding to to cut Joris in a way he is idle.

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#18 26.05.2013 08:45:23

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

OK per the request of some players, I opened a thread for winning claims. You have 10 days to claim victory or defeat.

http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?pid=2535

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#19 26.05.2013 09:39:36

mrsynical
Player
Posts: 171

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

Dimitril wrote:

It make a lot more sense to receive victory claim. Idler who survived won't come here to say anything. As far as I know, silence means consent.

So far we have 3 claim. Kryon, Dimitril, Grendel.

Errr...  Rule 5.3:

A teamless game can be won by one player, or an alliance formed by a number of players no bigger than was agreed upon before the game started, by either:
* Military defeat of all other players.
* Winning the space race (if enabled).
* Surrender - all other live players have surrendered.
* Another condition, agreed upon before the game started.

Are you saying if I don't state that I have surrendered ... then I have surrender?


PS - If we are giving out gold stars ... I would give them to kryon & akfaew for hitting 4 digits in kill/loss. Not sure why kryon's score is still so high - didn't score used to be calculated from population & techs?

Last edited by mrsynical (26.05.2013 09:42:17)

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#20 26.05.2013 11:38:07

akfaew
Administrator
Posts: 619

Re: LETS RECOGNISE THE BEST PLAYERS OF LT31!

mrsynical wrote:

didn't score used to be calculated from population & techs?

./score.c:333: static int get_units_score(const struct player *pplayer)
./score.c:334: {
./score.c:335:   return (pplayer->score.units_built / 10
./score.c:336:           + pplayer->score.units_killed / 3);
./score.c:337: }
...
./score.c:342: int get_civ_score(const struct player *pplayer)
./score.c:343: {
./score.c:344:   /* We used to count pplayer->score.happy here too, but this is too easily
./score.c:345:    * manipulated by players at the endrturn. */
./score.c:346:   return (total_player_citizens(pplayer)
./score.c:347:           + pplayer->score.techs * 2
./score.c:348:           + pplayer->score.wonders * 5
./score.c:349:           + get_spaceship_score(pplayer)
./score.c:350:           + get_units_score(pplayer));
./score.c:351: }

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