#26 31.05.2013 06:55:59

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Dimitril wrote:
det0r wrote:
Lord_P wrote:

This claim the win and get everyone to agree system doesnt seem to work too well if toomany think they are the winner tongue

The simple solution would be to avoid these massive alliances so that the number of alive players at end game is sufficently low.

The number of player from the church doesn't seem to be the problem here.

We are not talking here about win rules because we have some and they are working perfectly, we are talking here about poll and his consequences. If voted properly poll said that we will end in T180 with special circumstances to win, se should provide winners in this rules.

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#27 01.06.2013 01:21:17

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Given what Kryon said, and the rule about who can win a game. I am wondering if is poll was legit. Can we resume game?

Last edited by Dimitril (01.06.2013 02:30:33)

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#28 01.06.2013 08:43:05

Xercise
Player
Posts: 95

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Lord_P's post (see below) is very reasonable and well put. I am also in favour of a ranking system that is applicable to any end situation, but of course encourages a small number of players to take over the world (i.e. less players at end means more points each, calculated on applicable stats (e.g. production, units killed, to a certain extent population etc.), also if only x allied players claim victory and all other surrender, then they get even more points). It seems our LT community has many talented programmers - let's build a better ranking system instead of bickering about this particular LT31 case. I am happy to help with ideas; however, I am not a programmer.


Lord_P wrote:

This claim the win and get everyone to agree system doesnt seem to work too well if toomany think they are the winner tongue
Shouldnt the winning player and the scores player achieve be determined in a way that is based on pure numbers and can be clearly calculated on the end turn?
Heres a suggested method:

-All starting players get an equal stake in the score, kind of like it is now.
-The game ends at a clearly defined turn, say 180.
-All players who have been killed before this turn get zero points. The points they started with go in the pot so theres an incentive to be agressive and wipe out players before the end.
-The remaining players get the total points divided proportionately between them, based on Civ score (Or another method of scoring if the basic civ score is insufficient, but it must be based entirely on stats that can be extracted from the game)
-Whatever scoring method is used, points should come out roughly equivalent to typical scores with the old ranking so it can be continued.

So, huge alliances and stalemate endings are fine, but then everyone is going to get a pretty average score when its divided.
If a huge alliance of smaller players and a single strong player reach a stalemate, the stronger single player will come out with a bigger score than all the individual allies, rather than the declared winner of the alliance getting all the points on the backs of thier comrades.

Last edited by Xercise (01.06.2013 08:44:52)

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#29 01.06.2013 11:38:54

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I also claim victory. Edrim made a post claiming victory for his alliance of 4 alive players. Unless one of them objects, I take that as each player claiming victory.

Here is the current situation:

Claims victory: (7 players)
kryon
akfaew
dimitril
edrim
joris
kull
lord_p

Accepts defeat: (5 players)
cgalik
kyrilus
illvilja
sokrat
mmm2

Alive players who have not responded yet: (19 players)
wieder
viznut
soon
pipo
o01leg
mrsynical
meton
jumangee
johnhx
elpollodiablo
bamskamp
xercise
vendicar
trodan
tuhin
malibujack
grendel
captainawesome
trashkiller

If 1 more alive player claims victory by June 5, game will have no winners or losers.

Last edited by Kryon (01.06.2013 11:40:08)

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#30 01.06.2013 12:15:37

akfaew
Administrator
Posts: 619

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Kryon, joris abandoned the game and delegated to edrim.

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#31 01.06.2013 12:40:29

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

akfaew wrote:

Kryon, joris abandoned the game and delegated to edrim.

That is really unfair but in previous games, people delegated for months and it was accepted. I think we should really have a rule to stop this abuse. I see that we now have a rule:
"Having control of another nation for too long is frowned upon. If the original player is away for too long his nation may be removed or given away." So you could have removed joris from the game but you did not. Unfortunately the rule does not say that players who delegate for too long can not be winners. I recommend you modify the rule to avoid this abuse in LT32 by specifying a maximum total number of turns/days that a player can delegate before he is removed from the game.

Last edited by Kryon (01.06.2013 12:41:07)

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#32 01.06.2013 13:22:44

Kryon
Player
Posts: 331

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I discuss the ranking system and alliance limit here: http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?pid=2746

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#33 01.06.2013 13:43:08

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

akfaew wrote:

Kryon, joris abandoned the game and delegated to edrim.

Lol, it was not more then 14 turns, so it can looks like vacation, and it was only one delegation.
Does 10 turns of delegation looks like abandon game?
How about all other delegation that tooked more then month?

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#34 01.06.2013 14:18:09

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Kryon wrote:

I also claim victory. Edrim made a post claiming victory for his alliance of 4 alive players. Unless one of them objects, I take that as each player claiming victory.

You forgot about Grendel from post: http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?id=265

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#35 01.06.2013 15:53:02

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Kryon said post needed to be done here. He took your post for I don't know whatever reason.

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#36 01.06.2013 19:45:52

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Kryon wrote:

I also claim victory. Edrim made a post claiming victory for his alliance of 4 alive players. Unless one of them objects, I take that as each player claiming victory.

Here is the current situation:
Claims victory: (7 players)
kryon
akfaew
dimitril
edrim
joris
kull
lord_p

Dimitril wrote:

Kryon said post needed to be done here. He took your post for I don't know whatever reason.

But he still can writes whatever he wants. This is his ranking and he can put there anybody.

It was his poll about ending in T180, it is his ranking, and it is his topic, so i dont think if he can has any reason for writing anything he wants.

I am waiting for putting Grendel on a list:)

Sorry Kryon about saying he about you, but I only replayed to last mail in same style.

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#37 02.06.2013 10:23:00

o01eg
Player
Posts: 4

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I accept defeat. I survived mostly because allies.

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#38 02.06.2013 10:28:18

Xercise
Player
Posts: 95

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I accept defeat, because I would have been defeated in epoch 2 of the Church plan, by either akfaew, dimitril or wieder, who had far more productive cities than myself at the end.

I am glad I survived to witness the annihilation of many of my enemies though - may their souls rest in peace and until we meet again!

Well done to those of you who truly deserve victory!

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#39 02.06.2013 11:20:33

jumangee
Player
Posts: 4

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I accept defeat

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#40 02.06.2013 11:31:07

MalibuJack
Player
Posts: 3

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I accept defeat. I made a lot of mistakes, and could not have survived without the peaceful attitude of my Church Alliance neighbors toward their (peaceful) neighbors. I figured the best I could hope for in my first game was to survive to the end, and I am nonetheless pleased to achieve that  smile

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#41 02.06.2013 11:43:30

soon
Player
Posts: 5

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I accept defeat.

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#42 02.06.2013 18:11:57

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

A definition of alliance more fitting Kryon view of winning this game would be: A relationship based on an affinity in interests, nature, or qualities. (Source: Google) In this case, the quality would be winning the game.

You can still claim victory for yourself and probably Joris since he delegated to you. But I ask Kryon to put on hold Lord_P and Kull claim until they confirm the alliance and the claim. If you fear they may not see this tread, why don't you email them?

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#43 02.06.2013 19:09:33

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Dimitril wrote:

A definition of alliance more fitting Kryon view of winning this game would be: A relationship based on an affinity in interests, nature, or qualities. (Source: Google) In this case, the quality would be winning the game.

Why dont you take a definition from

http://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/Diplomacy wrote:

Alliance
Alliance treaties come with obligations, and you won't be able to ally with a player that is at war with a current ally unless you break the first treaty. If one of your allies declares war on another, the alliance with the aggressor is automatically broken.
Zones of control don't apply and allied units can enter the same tile (including city and transport). Thus, cities can't be bribed by a diplomat entering in them.

Breaking an alliance drops you to armistice treaty, giving each player time to move their units out of the other player's territory before a new peace treaty kicks in and disbands units.

Again, under representative governments, the senate will block an attempt to break an alliance without provocation.

We are still in freeciv game universe, not in real life.

Dimitril wrote:

You can still claim victory for yourself and probably Joris since he delegated to you. But I ask Kryon to put on hold Lord_P and Kull claim until they confirm the alliance and the claim. If you fear they may not see this tread, why don't you email them?

Once i prepare to place my winning topic (to show how it should looks like) i asked if any of my alliance mate has any contrary to place them ot this topic, they all have replayed to me, thats why i put them into this list.
Do they have to write his sentences on my topic, or it is not valid topic and only valid winning topic is this where i put his post into? Because it doesnt looks like any winning topic i ever seen in this game.

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#44 02.06.2013 20:29:23

ifaesfu
Player
From: Huelva - Spain
Posts: 93
Website

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

This is absurd. First of all, can someone post the alliance members as it was in T180? Every players of all living alliances should be automatically declared as winners only if they respect the size 7 limit. We need only one alliance of players to be the winner. Nothing else.
I think individual declarations shouldn't be taken into account. Winners should be declared together with all their partners as edrim did http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?id=296.
What else otherwise is the sense of the alliance size limit?

I think this post http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?pid=2761#p2761 from mmm2 is very interesting. We need a tool to control alliances in order to avoid this mess if we agree we should limit the alliance size.
It's unfair to be part of a huge alliance and in the final turn of a game claim victory saying that you are part of a smaller alliance than it was really, helped by lots of players that declare they don't mind the rank and, of course, they have no problem in giving the victory away.

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#45 02.06.2013 21:28:24

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 813

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

It seems that Edrim's claim for victory is valid, but his claim for his team members is not valid. May I remind you about the opening post for this thread.

"If you are a survivor and do not respond to this thread for 10 days (until June 5th) then you'll be considered as defeated."

So far only 4 people has responded to this thread and claimd for victory. The rest of Edrim's team has not done that, so it seems that we have only 4 players claiming for victory of LT31. In the opening post it reads that survivors should make a post to this thread. Not someone for them.

Here is the current situation:
Claims victory: (4 players)
kryon
akfaew
dimitril
edrim

What if this ends with some people winning LT31? Well. Nothing really.

Maybe Kryon and Edrim are going to be proud winners of LT31. Maybe even someone else.

If that's how it ends, then so be it.

I'm not going to contribute taking away the victory from akfaew and Dimitril. They are among those players deserving to win.

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#46 02.06.2013 23:50:04

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

This is not a definition of a term, it is technical information about a game feature. Since a treaty is not even a player, I don't think it could win a game isn't?

Listen Ifaesfu, I don't even knew a good fraction of my so call massive Alliance. It was a rabble of cease fire, peace, and some alliance treaty. Most players just wanted to stay alive and we had no time to fight each others. Most of them where just standing there, great help indeed. Saying something like: The church claim winning! Would be a total non-sense.

Ok I understand how edrim feel. He's admin and he doesn't want to take shit from regular players and he's also angry because I split is empire just before the end game. On that he is similar to akfaew who doesn't want to commit every poll for lt32 because it take away is "divine power". It's like that, power build ego and bring responsibilities; like making sure people have fun playing on longturn. So tell me, does any of this is fun for you or at least make your precious ego feel better edrim?

And yeah, where not going to take your word as proof. I can pretend anybody was my best buddy and also deserve victory you know.

Last edited by Dimitril (02.06.2013 23:52:33)

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#47 03.06.2013 01:53:02

ifaesfu
Player
From: Huelva - Spain
Posts: 93
Website

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

I know teamless rules want to be changed by accepting winners without killing or surrending the rest of the players.
I haven't found the poll of the turn limit to re-read it, but I think it was only intended for limiting the length of time of lt31.

I think it didn't say that it would be enough to be alive to claim victory. It has no sense that a player with only 1 city can claim victory. It could happen if some of them did it and they were no more than 7.

I think it should be accepted that the game couldn't be finished because of the turn limit, so it ended in a draw.

Regarding the alliances: I don't know anything about the real alliances of the game, but I read there were "huge" ones. Could someone post it?

I know this thread asks for individual claimers. I only say it's against the rules, as the polls didn't say anything as "if the game reachs the turn limit and the rule 5.3 can't be fulfilled, then we'll make individual claims of victory, regardless of the alliances of the players who claim."

To be declared as a winner you should post the nicks of the whole alliance (if any) and the rest of alive players have to accept your victory. If only one of them doesn't agree, then it's a draw.

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#48 03.06.2013 04:45:20

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Fear not, if there's some winners or if it end up in tie, you where exterminated and you will loose the game just the same. This only affect player who survived.

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#49 03.06.2013 06:56:13

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Dimitril wrote:

This is not a definition of a term, it is technical information about a game feature. Since a treaty is not even a player, I don't think it could win a game isn't?

Yes, but in your way of thinking in alliance could be players who only talked inchat and never meet ingame.

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#50 03.06.2013 07:41:57

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Dimitril wrote:

Ok I understand how edrim feel. He's admin and he doesn't want to take shit from regular players and he's also angry because I split is empire just before the end game. On that he is similar to akfaew who doesn't want to commit every poll for lt32 because it take away is "divine power". It's like that, power build ego and bring responsibilities; like making sure people have fun playing on longturn. So tell me, does any of this is fun for you or at least make your precious ego feel better edrim?

My ego is just fine and i am having fun:)
I dont know why are you mention about splitting, it was best thing i could had in this game, i got all mainland of bamskamp who was your ally and you did nothing to def him, i took all his best cities who was much more better then mine, after splitting my cap was moved to his mainland and i lost unhappyness problem and lost production problem at all. With this splitting i lost about 10 marines and maybe 13 poor size 8 cities. With setting of end of a game in T180 loosers lost theirs chance of defending, this is really nice way of playing, where winners feel like winners but they need to destroy all cities of opponents who dont want to surrender, this take time and destroy portion of winners gods ability.

Rule connected to poll was that an ally should win no later then T180, can you corespond with it? What is missunderstanding in:

poll wrote:

Shall we limit the alliance size to N/10 (N is the number of players and N/10 will be rounded to nearest integer)? If more than N/10 (alive) players claim victory by turn 180, the game will be ended without any winners.

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