#101 12.06.2013 02:36:32

meton
Player
Posts: 9

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

StratThinker wrote:

6. They have their own metric on how well they played and they do not care about the official metric to argue. Then do we play the same game? If this is the case, they should at least publish their own ranking.

StratThinker wrote:

7. They feel that playing is more fun than winning (I have some friends like that). This seems legit.

Why? If you play as a rogue element for simple self-indulgence, why the hell should one make a spreadsheet of various lulz one gets from pulling the carpet under pompous idiots, arming their weaker enemies and then making them fight each other... While you play the game behind the game and watch laughing as events unfold? But end up with a below-average score. You'll still have a helluva game.

Naturally there needs to be an official metric and a winner. But if you want to make it exciting, stop thinking one dimentionally over some ranking board.

Furthermore, roleplay. Even though during the game stuff is personal, sometimes very so, draw a clear line.

I remember having a face-to-face meeting with one of my key opponents in freeciv.fi/2011/I. There are official rules about this, there is not to be any sharing of game play directly but naturally various politics and other bullshit was discussed. The women folk felt quite betrayed that evening since we were the ones gossiping over seemingly pointless stuff with a passion.

It's a kind of "Game of Thrones" if you will.

And I do understand that it's a radical change to lt.org culture and so not surprised if it will never become popular here.

This type of game has drawbacks though. The overtly lax ruleset can create situations that are hopelessly unfair, especially early in the game. and not even fc.fi or jhh has managed to solve them.

They think they can take on the role of the dungeon master and a main character at the same time. This simply isn't so, the freeciv.fi community admins run the show and effectively sometimes decide through their "council of wizards" what's fair etc.

Also I think they want to impose their own morale and "gentlemanship" upon players, which is bullshit. big_smile

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#102 12.06.2013 14:48:45

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

meton wrote:

I've got news for you. After LT30 the rules were made so restrictive that no one player COULD POSSIBLY be a major actor on the scene because Jhh started to do this.

Well. There is no sticky topic on the forum with all the "gentlemen agreements" binding for longturn players listed, so it is no surprise that some newbies (eg. me) will be kinda lost at the beginning. A player who is fan of conspiracies could even call this "omerta". But now I can see why Admins are pissed off at my modest person.

meton wrote:

All because you people can't grok what a truly magnificent EVE-like experience such a game can be.

You've just won my vote.

meton wrote:

Also I think they want to impose their own morale and "gentlemanship" upon players, which is bullshit.

Well. When I entered longturn before LT31 I found to my major surprise that Admins of the game actually play it. How can a judge be involved in the case he is supposed to try? I could not imagine any gentleman agreement possibly binding a man so prone to corruption. But I eventually shrugged when I found they are Poles. After all in Poland cheating on the exams is nothing bad, so there is no surprise that things in longturn were settled like that.  "I can live with that" was my final attitude. And until edrim came out with his "po mnie choćby potop"*) polish attitude I was shrugging constantly.

Now pay attention, you old foxes: the ranking is a joke, that is what I heard yesterday from some player.

_____________
* let it be even a deluge after I die, I do not care about that at all, I shall do what I want to do.

Last edited by Archont (12.06.2013 15:30:02)


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
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#103 12.06.2013 17:25:55

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Yup, the ranking is a joke. Ranking in small community alway are.

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#104 12.06.2013 17:39:56

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Hm. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the ranking in this community has very important role: to discourage massive alliances.

When it will be judged defective by community, everything will be possible on board.


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
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#105 12.06.2013 17:45:31

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

I could not imagine any gentleman agreement possibly binding a man so prone to corruption. But I eventually shrugged when I found they are Poles. After all in Poland cheating on the exams is nothing bad, so there is no surprise that things in longturn were settled like that.  "I can live with that" was my final attitude. And until edrim came out with his "po mnie choćby potop"*) polish attitude I was shrugging constantly.

I dont know why are you so involved in judging LT31 if you died so early and you dont know what was going in your sight. If you have nothing to say maybe you should stay quiet.
Once the page was moved to another infrastrucutre olf forum has lost, you can still read it on archive.org but nobody used to read it. If you dont know anything you can still ask, if you dont understand why was rule poll about limiting alliance size, you should ask. BTW it was because once again in LT30 it was game like: "huh, little alliance is much more better then us, so lets get some more alliances together and kill them because we are not able to win by ourselfs, we will talk (if we win) about winning team later, maybe they will kill some of our huge ally players". As we see it was the same tactics in LT31, one alliance which was limited by rule poll started winning a game, so "huh, little alliance is much more better then us, so lets get some more allianc.....". Dont you see (all of you grouping in large allies) that this is stupid? This is not blame to lost a game because you are little less efficiency in playing, it is a blame to group and kick smaller group in a pack of wolfes. It is like in primary school: did you group in with other small people to kick one kid because you thought he is better then you by yourself and you will not be able to kick him one vs one? It is not fun to have over numbered alliance in games one by one, i could understand it when once for 5 games generator place best players close together and they have join in very good alliance and everybody should try to stop them, but not every game we play and all time same people. This is not fun, for everyone outside big alliance, and some players of big alliance too. Thats why people are quiting to play LT after one or two games.

Archont wrote:

Now pay attention, you old foxes: the ranking is a joke, that is what I heard yesterday from some player.

You can still make your own ranking and rewrite LT31 winning list like if you died in early stage and your name become on A you are winner.

Archont wrote:

Well. When I entered longturn before LT31 I found to my major surprise that Admins of the game actually play it. How can a judge be involved in the case he is supposed to try?


It was before Lt30 that we have changed administration from one admin to another, i dont know why admin should not play in game he is creating like it was from very beggining? We have all trust to admin - akfaew.
This is a poll community, so Admins is not involve to judging anyone with admins privilages, so whats a big deal?

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#106 12.06.2013 20:03:13

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

edrim wrote:

I dont know why are you so involved in judging LT31 if you died so early and you dont know what was going in your sight. If you have nothing to say maybe you should stay quiet.

Like if it was a major crime to draw conclusions about the community from what its members have to say about the game I had to left because of health issues. Trust me, they can be wordy.

And who said I am judging the game itself? I am judging mostly what happened after the game was finished. And this time I was witness to that.

edrim wrote:

If you dont know anything you can still ask, if you dont understand why was rule poll about limiting alliance size, you should ask.

...aaand to receive answer starting from "for god sake" or "I think I said that five times already"? The latter was followed by complete silence.

edrim wrote:

It is like in primary school: did you group in with other small people to kick one kid because you thought he is better then you by yourself and you will not be able to kick him one vs one?

Wow, big deal. Speaking from the other side of barricade (I can guess; I doubt edrim was bullied in grammar school) there is always a reason for bullying that is not stopped after some time but lasts until bullied kid graduates. And I do not mean the "reason": wow, he is fat, he is disabled, he wears glasses so let us kick his ass. (End of offtopic.)

edrim wrote:

Don't you see (all of you grouping in large allies) that this is stupid? This is not blame to lost a game because you are little less efficiency in playing, it is a blame to group and kick smaller group in a pack of wolves.

I can see there is no way to stop such misconduct. One can hardcode into the server rule saying "no more than 7 allies in string alliance", but one cannot hardcode it into players' wetware.

edrim wrote:

This is not fun, for everyone outside big alliance, and some players of big alliance too. That's why people are quitting to play LT after one or two games.

I can imagine that. BUT if you think shouting the things aloud from the depth of one's frustration can make possible to impose some rules over people, you are horribly wrong. To be honest, it is the best way to get bullied.

edrim wrote:
Archont wrote:

Now pay attention, you old foxes: the ranking is a joke, that is what I heard yesterday from some player.

You can still make your own ranking and rewrite LT31 winning list like if you died in early stage and your name become on A you are winner.

I can. Sure I can, let there be two rankings and let the free market decide which is more important. But:
- I want to play at least one game of Longturn before I start to offer (and not only suggest) my own rules to this community (the whole vassalage stuff is just a suggestion for people wiser than me and nothing more),
- I do not want to cause Kryon pain.

edrim wrote:
Archont wrote:

Well. When I entered longturn before LT31 I found to my major surprise that Admins of the game actually play it. How can a judge be involved in the case he is supposed to try?

This is a poll community, so Admins is not involve to judging anyone with admins privilages, so whats a big deal?

An excerpt from poll community activity:

akfaew wrote:

I'm going to veto this, even though it won 14 vs 2.


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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#107 13.06.2013 06:21:26

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

- I want to play at least one game of Longturn before I start to offer (and not only suggest) my own rules to this community (the whole vassalage stuff is just a suggestion for people wiser than me and nothing more),

Why dont you play a game here before waiting to all of community your controversary opinions? Maybe start talking after 3 games played, in your case it should be usefull.

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#108 13.06.2013 09:18:02

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

That is your opinion, and a controvertial one.

Now, seriously guys: is there a "gentleman agreement" made by you stating "if you are a noob, STFU"? Cause the more I read edrim, the more I am convinced that he probably would honor such an agreement.


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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#109 13.06.2013 09:29:55

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

That is your opinion, and a controvertial one.

Now, seriously guys: is there a "gentleman agreement" made by you stating "if you are a noob, STFU"? Cause the more I read edrim, the more I am convinced that he probably would honor such an agreement.

There is much difference in being noob and being newbie, thinks about who are you here, because if you are noob maybe you should think twice when you are wrtining anything.

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#110 13.06.2013 18:30:34

Dimitril
Player
Posts: 83

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Don't worry Archont. You are right, and this is why I find this funny.

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#111 13.06.2013 22:45:37

mrsynical
Player
Posts: 171

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

But I eventually shrugged when I found they are Poles. After all in Poland cheating on the exams is nothing bad, so there is no surprise that things in longturn were settled like that."

Where on earth did this come from!? Seems a bit on the nose.

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#112 13.06.2013 23:20:24

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

It is such a secular tradition. Everybody cheat. Because they can.

It is a cultural thing. And if you are multi-culti...

BTW, to make things perfectly clear: polish attitude comes in three flavors.
1. Live (like you want) and let the others live (like they want). This is the quintessence of polish culture.
2. When there is no stuff and you need stuff, you can get stuff, even if supplier of stuff has no stuff. This is an evolutionary adaptation to permanent occupation by enemies and/or "friends".
3. Po mnie choćby potop. This is considered bad. Because it is use of second flavor to abuse first flavor.

Last edited by Archont (14.06.2013 01:24:19)


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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#113 14.06.2013 06:24:11

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

It is such a secular tradition. Everybody cheat. Because they can.

It is a cultural thing. And if you are multi-culti...

BTW, to make things perfectly clear: polish attitude comes in three flavors.
1. Live (like you want) and let the others live (like they want). This is the quintessence of polish culture.
2. When there is no stuff and you need stuff, you can get stuff, even if supplier of stuff has no stuff. This is an evolutionary adaptation to permanent occupation by enemies and/or "friends".
3. Po mnie choćby potop. This is considered bad. Because it is use of second flavor to abuse first flavor.

There is one nice proverb in poland: "Zły to ptak co własne gniazdo kala" it is translated like "it's an ill bird that fouls its own nest" with ill in a meaning of evil not sick.

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#114 14.06.2013 07:35:37

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Requested kindly I remove my last post and sorry edrim for being rude without a reason.

Last edited by Archont (14.06.2013 16:37:06)


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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#115 14.06.2013 23:28:01

Grendel
Player
Posts: 45

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

2. When there is no stuff and you need stuff, you can get stuff, even if supplier of stuff has no stuff.

You've been hanging out with Wieder haven't you?

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#116 15.06.2013 02:44:47

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

How did you guess?

Back ontopic: If I was in a position to decide anything (as I am not), I would take any catch as a pretext to resolve this unfortunate LT31 to a tie to save ranking's prestige and repute. And yes, in this case I would not say: "it's a suggestion", I would say "let's do it this way" taking full responsibility for consequences. Alas, I am not even a Longturn coder. And damn, I did not delegate so that I could claim myself 8th winner. My fault, which will never happen again.

(This scuffle was like wearing one's old clothes, but it's enough now. Aah, young again...)

Reason of last edition: grammatical errors.

Last edited by Archont (15.06.2013 05:38:25)


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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#117 15.06.2013 17:32:57

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

How did you guess?

Ask your Team Leader Duncan to start picking or ask for delegate any player for it.

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#118 15.06.2013 17:49:54

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Thank you for notification.

There is a problem, however, because he does not respond to emails and we have no other way to contact him.

I have just sent him another one, but if he does not respond, will it mean that my team should elect new Leader and that you, Admins, should open sign ins again to get one additional player?

Last edited by Archont (15.06.2013 18:16:00)


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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#119 15.06.2013 18:55:48

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

Thank you for notification.

There is a problem, however, because he does not respond to emails and we have no other way to contact him.

I have just sent him another one, but if he does not respond, will it mean that my team should elect new Leader and that you, Admins, should open sign ins again to get one additional player?


It means that you need to delegate a player for picking locations, write here emails to guys who will be doing this picking and i will add them to mailing list and we can  getting start picking.

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#120 15.06.2013 20:09:17

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

OK.

We decided to give Duncan time to respond till tomorrow morning. If he do not respond, a player delegated to do the picking will contact you.


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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#121 15.06.2013 21:00:39

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

Archont wrote:

OK.

We decided to give Duncan time to respond till tomorrow morning. If he do not respond, a player delegated to do the picking will contact you.

Better bring two players (living in different time zone) because picking for Duncan is set about 00:00 and 12:00 GMT every day.

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#122 15.06.2013 23:20:49

mrsynical
Player
Posts: 171

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

how about we just kick the whole of duncan's team from the game?

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#123 16.06.2013 06:20:53

Archont
Player
From: Kraków, Poland, age 35
Posts: 59

Re: LT31 Winner Claims

edrim wrote:

Better bring two players (living in different time zone) because picking for Duncan is set about 00:00 and 12:00 GMT every day.

Actually we started voting this, but since there is no time, let me cut this knot. The picking will be done by Xercise and me. I do not know precisely, what time zone Xercise lives in, but since I am nocny marek of GMT+1 DST, we will be able to share our duties without any problems.


..(`)     In my spirit lies my faith
.(  )     Stronger than love and with me it will be
/(* *)  For always
./(_)()
Orchestra!

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