#1 30.06.2014 11:11:20

akfaew
Administrator
Posts: 619

LT33 ruleset

With no working Windows client we will postpone LTeX25.

LTeX24 is cancelled, it will never start.

We will start LT33 as a normal 2.3-based teamless game, forked from LT31 at the moment. The ruleset and game binaries are available at https://github.com/longturn/games - propose changes in this thread, the system of polls will be abandoned. An email will be sent to all registered users a week or two before we're ready to start.

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#2 30.06.2014 11:26:03

akfaew
Administrator
Posts: 619

Re: LT33 ruleset

Fixed the LT31 fortress bug.

diff --git a/LT33/data/LT33/terrain.ruleset b/LT33/data/LT33/terrain.ruleset
index ca5631e..097c1a2 100755
--- a/LT33/data/LT33/terrain.ruleset
+++ b/LT33/data/LT33/terrain.ruleset
@@ -934,6 +934,7 @@ reqs           =
       "Tech", "Construction", "Player"
       "TerrainClass", "Land", "Local"
       "UnitFlag", "Settlers", "Local"
+      "Base", "Pre-Fortress", "Tile"
     }
 gui_type       = "Fortress"
 build_time     = 3

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#3 30.06.2014 12:29:42

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

I should have read this before replying to the another thread and suggesting changes.

Here are few propositions: (is this the correct way to propose stuff or should I do it some other way?)


1) The restrictinfra was disabled in LT31. I suggest it would be turned on.

2) I would really like to see improvements (markets, banks, factories, etc) giving +50% bonus instead of just 25%. This would allow more dynamic gameplay when the players could really focus on making gold / production with the improvements. The result would be more advanced nations in less time. The problem with LT31 and LT32 was that 180/200+ turns is just too much.

3) enable celebration growth

4) Please no losing tech while trading / stealing unless going to negative bulbs big_smile

5) Instead of losing random techs the "stringed" tech research could be slightly limited by introducing a small cost for techs when traded. 20% of the price of the tech should prevent people gifting techs just for the laughs. If I have understood correctly, getting a free tech without enough bulbs to cover that 20% cost would result with a loss of a random tech. This would still make possible of forming groups researching tech but the players receiving the techs would still need to do some research.

6) Allowing the triremes to travel on rivers. I think this feature was introduced on the latest version of civ2civ3 ruleset but not used on LT31 or LT32. if only triremes would be able to do this, it would introduce the game a new element of saving few triremes for the late game.

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#4 30.06.2014 13:32:55

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

Why not giving largepoxing some advantage if the idea is to make the game world smaller than it was in the previous games? The current settings heavily promoted smallpoxing. In LT31 I did reasonably well when I had only the basic buildings and all but very few of my cities were size 8 max. It was just too expensive to go beyond size 8. I didn't even build more than one or two small wonders in that game just for the same reason. Smallpoxing was the way to go. In Lw1a I used a slightly different strategy but it was possible only because I had peaceful neighbors. With more aggressive nations around me it would have doomed my nation if I had improved my cities. I don't think it should be like that.

I really think that improving your cities should be worth doing since now it's too easy to just build the skeleton infra with just few buildings and then focus 100% on military. It's too efficient strategy because once you kill one nation you will be able to destroy everyone else unless they form super alliances to prevent that. This already happened in LT31 and LT32 just because it wasn't possible to get enough boost just from improving your cities.

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#5 30.06.2014 14:55:41

akfaew
Administrator
Posts: 619

Re: LT33 ruleset

I updated the serv file: https://github.com/longturn/games/blob/ … /LT33.serv

This takes care of wieder's point 1 and 4. I will do 2 and 3 shortly.

I think rapture growth is enabled, set rapturedelay=3

LT33 forks from LT31, not LT32, so factory etc will have the 50% bonus. LW1 inherited from LT32.

Last edited by akfaew (30.06.2014 14:57:10)

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#6 30.06.2014 15:44:18

mmm2
Player
Posts: 565

Re: LT33 ruleset

akfaew,
is it a good idea to make marco polo's embassy a city improvement, and never obsolete?

edit: i just realized, this will cause a negative side effect: players will be able to make allies with anyone, even the farthest away players, share techs, and do everything else.. marco polo is too powerful,... better would be just to have a report show every turn in demographics displaying shared vision groupings.. I don't think anyone will do the coding for this, so this will have to wait until another LT if ever...

Last edited by mmm2 (30.06.2014 16:01:26)

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#7 30.06.2014 16:28:54

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

Marco polo? I didn't see that included in the ruleset??

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#8 30.06.2014 17:03:31

mmm2
Player
Posts: 565

Re: LT33 ruleset

it is not.. but it's very easy to add city improvement to ruleset and give effect of wonder.

[the remainder of thread was deleted due to irrelevance]

Last edited by mmm2 (30.06.2014 17:46:22)

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#9 30.06.2014 17:18:34

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

What about some of these? These are from LT30 and most of them wouldn't probably fit here but some might. For example I like this kind of Marco Polo.

[building_asmiths_trading_co]
name        = _("A.Smith's Trading Co.")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Economics", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.asmiths_trading_co"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_asmiths_trading_co"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
City improvements which would normally have an upkeep of 1 are free\
of upkeep, for all your cities on the same continent.\
")

[building_colossus]
name        = _("Colossus")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Bronze Working", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.colossus"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Flight"
build_cost    = 100
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_colossus"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Each tile around the city where this wonder is built that is already\
generating some trade produces one extra trade resource.\
")

[building_copernicus_observatory]
name        = _("Copernicus' Observatory")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Astronomy", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.copernicus_observatory"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 200
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_copernicus_observatory"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
; /* xgettext:no-c-format */
helptext    = _("\
Boosts science production by 100% in the city where it is built.\
")

[building_cure_for_cancer]
name        = _("Cure For Cancer")
genus        = "GreatWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Genetic Engineering", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.cure_for_cancer"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 400
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_cure_for_cancer"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
This stunning technological achievement makes two content citizens\
happy in all cities of all players who have researched Genetic\
Engineering. In the unlikely event where there are not enough\
content citizens to benefit from this effect in a city, the wonder\
applies to unhappy citizens (including those unhappy about military\
activity), making each content then happy.\
")

[building_darwins_voyage]
name        = _("Darwin's Voyage")
genus        = "GreatWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Railroad", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.darwins_voyage"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_darwins_voyage"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Charles Darwin's voyage sparked the discovery of the evolution\
of the species, which inspired greater confidence in science.\
Gives two immediate technology advances.\
")

[building_eiffel_tower]
name        = _("Eiffel Tower")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Steam Engine", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.eiffel_tower"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 100
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_eiffel_tower"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
; /* xgettext:no-c-format */
helptext    = _("\
Each city on the same continent may support one unit free of\
shield upkeep.\
")

[building_great_library]
name        = _("Great Library")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Literacy", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.great_library"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 200
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_great_library"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
; /* xgettext:no-c-format */
helptext    = _("\
Reduces corruption by 50% in all cities on the same continent.\
")

[building_great_wall]
name        = _("Great Wall")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Masonry", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.great_wall"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Metallurgy"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_great_wall"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Works as a City Wall in all your cities on the same continent.\
")

[building_hanging_gardens]
name        = _("Hanging Gardens")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Pottery", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.hanging_gardens"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Railroad"
build_cost    = 200
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_hanging_gardens"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Makes two content citizens happy in every city on the same continent.\
In the unlikely event where there are no content citizens to get the\
effect of Hanging Gardens, the wonder applies to unhappy citizens\
(including those unhappy about military activity), making each content\
then happy.\
")

[building_hoover_dam]
name        = _("Hoover Dam")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Electronics", "Player"
      "Special", "River", "Adjacent"
    }
graphic    = "b.hoover_dam"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 600
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_hoover_dam"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Works as if you had a Hydro Plant in every city on the same\
continent. (This reduces pollution and increases the effects\
of Factories and Mfg. Plants.)\
")

[building_isaac_newtons_college]
name        = _("Isaac Newton's College")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Theory of Gravity", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.isaac_newtons_college"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 400
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_isaac_newtons_college"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
; /* xgettext:no-c-format */
helptext    = _("\
Boosts science production by 100% in every city on the same\
continent that has a University.\
")

[building_js_bachs_cathedral]
name        = _("J.S. Bach's Cathedral")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Theology", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.js_bachs_cathedral"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_js_bachs_cathedral"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Makes two unhappy citizens content in every city on the same continent\
(including citizens unhappy about military activity).\
")

[building_king_richards_crusade]
name        = _("King Richard's Crusade")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Engineering", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.king_richards_crusade"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Robotics"
build_cost    = 150
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_king_richards_crusade"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Adds one extra shield resource on every tile around the city\
where it is built.\
")

[building_leonardos_workshop]
name        = _("Leonardo's Workshop")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Invention", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.leonardos_workshop"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Automobile"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_leonardos_workshop"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Upgrades two obsolete units per game turn.\
")

[building_lighthouse]
name        = _("Lighthouse")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Map Making", "Player"
      "TerrainClass", "Oceanic", "Adjacent"
    }
graphic    = "b.lighthouse"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Magnetism"
build_cost    = 200
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_lighthouse"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Gives all your sea units 1 additional movement point.\
")

[building_magellans_expedition]
name        = _("Magellan's Expedition")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Navigation", "Player"
      "TerrainClass", "Oceanic", "Adjacent"
    }
graphic    = "b.magellans_expedition"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 400
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_magellans_expedition"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
All your new sea units built in cities on the same continent start at\
the first veteran level.\
")

[building_manhattan_project]
name        = _("Manhattan Project")
genus        = "GreatWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Nuclear Fission", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.manhattan_project"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 600
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_manhattan_project"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
;helptext is set in client/helpdata.c:helptext_wonder()
;helptext    =

[building_marco_polos_embassy]
name        = _("Marco Polo's Embassy")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Trade", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.marco_polos_embassy"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 400
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_marco_polos_embassy"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
; /* xgettext:no-c-format */
helptext    = _("\
Increases trade output by 40% in all cities on the same\
continent.\
")

[building_michelangelos_chapel]
name        = _("Michelangelo's Chapel")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Monotheism", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.michelangelos_chapel"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_michelangelos_chapel"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Counts as having a Cathedral in each of your cities on the same\
continent. This makes 3 unhappy citizens content in each city;\
however, it does not affect citizens made unhappy by military activity.\
The discovery of Theology increases the effect of a Cathedral,\
making an additional unhappy citizen content. The discovery of\
Communism lessens the effect of a Cathedral, reducing by one\
the number of unhappy citizens made content.\
")

[building_oracle]
name        = _("Oracle")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Mysticism", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.oracle"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Theology"
build_cost    = 100
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_oracle"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Makes two of your unhappy citizens content in every city\
with a Temple on the same continent. Does not affect citizens made\
unhappy by military activity.\
")

[building_pyramids]
name        = _("Pyramids")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Masonry", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.pyramids"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 200
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_pyramids"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
; /* xgettext:no-c-format */
helptext    = _("\
The city where this wonder is built will experience\
rapture growth when celebrating.\
")

[building_internet]
name        = _("The Internet")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
     { "type", "name", "range"
       "Tech", "Computers", "Player"
     }
graphic    = "b.internet"
graphic_alt    = "b.seti_program"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 600
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_internet"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
; /* xgettext:no-c-format */
helptext    = _("\
Boosts science production in each city on the\
same continent with a Research Lab by 100%.\
")

[building_shakespeares_theatre]
name            = _("Shakespeare's Theater")
rule_name       = "Shakespeare's Theatre"       ; en_GB used originally
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Medicine", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.shakespeares_theatre"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 200
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_shakespeares_theatre"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Makes all angry and unhappy citizens content in the city where it\
is located, including citizens unhappy about military activity.\
")

[building_statue_of_liberty]
name        = _("Statue of Liberty")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Democracy", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.statue_of_liberty"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 400
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_statue_of_liberty"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Allows you to choose any government, including those that have not yet\
been researched by your civilization, and without the transition\
period of Anarchy.\
")

[building_sun_tzus_war_academy]
name        = _("Sun Tzu's War Academy")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Feudalism", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.sun_tzus_war_academy"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "Mobile Warfare"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_sun_tzus_war_academy"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
All your new military land units produced in cities on the same\
continent start at the first veteran level.\
")

[building_united_nations]
name        = _("United Nations")
genus        = "GreatWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Communism", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.united_nations"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 600
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_united_nations"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Creates a world senate that may prevent declarations of\
war in some circumstances. If any player's city is in revolt\
for more than two turns, that player's government falls.\
")

[building_womens_suffrage]
name        = _("Women's Suffrage")
genus        = "SmallWonder"
reqs    =
    { "type", "name", "range"
      "Tech", "Industrialization", "Player"
    }
graphic    = "b.womens_suffrage"
graphic_alt    = "-"
obsolete_by    = "None"
build_cost    = 300
upkeep        = 0
sabotage    = 0
sound        = "w_womens_suffrage"
sound_alt    = "w_generic"
helptext    = _("\
Counts as a Police Station in every city on the same continent.\
(That is, for each city, it reduces the unhappiness caused by\
aggressively deployed military units owned by that city by 4 under\
Democracy and 2 under Republic -- in other words, it neutralises\
the unhappiness caused by two military units per city. This wonder\
has no effect under other governments.)\
")

Offline

#10 30.06.2014 17:48:21

mmm2
Player
Posts: 565

Re: LT33 ruleset

wieder, how about we leave it for you to define ruleset settings for this LT?

I would like to be setting master for Lt35! tongue.. so far I didn't have much good ideas for this one, so I will wait until 35th lt smile

Offline

#11 30.06.2014 18:04:35

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

If you built Marco Polo with this kind of wonder, you would probably also be building some trade improvements. This would be a step away from smallpoxing for sure. I like the idea of having big cities, but I'm not against smallpoxing since it's just the other way of doing this stuff.

One question is, how many turns should it (on average) take to make the improvements to earn back the resources the player used on them? Let's say that some average city makes 12 gold / turn and the player builds a marketplace there. With 25% bonus it would take 40 turns to get back the amount of the gold spent there assuming that the city doesn't grow. With 50% bonus it would take only 20 turns. Somehow that sounds reasonable. Bigger/better cities would get it of course so much sooner. If the nation was making 100 gold when Polo was built, the payback time would be the same 20 turns but the nation would be so much stronger compared to any nation who was not building it. I'm not sure but somehow 20% bonus would sound more right. Or alternatively making the Polo cost 600 with the 40% bonus. Only 600 because it would probably make the wonder building player more vulnerable for attacks since it would cost ast much as 20 phalanx units and it may make a real difference in the early game.

I'll keep checking the rest of the wonders a bit later.

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#12 30.06.2014 20:23:02

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

mmm2, I just checked that LT30 had a defense bonus of +100% for hills and +200% for mountains and I think it was also possible to build a city on a mountain, possibly with a river. Yeah, and the rivers provided with an additional +50% bonus there

How about that? big_smile

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#13 01.07.2014 00:04:21

mmm2
Player
Posts: 565

Re: LT33 ruleset

wieder wrote:

mmm2, I just checked that LT30 had a defense bonus of +100% for hills and +200% for mountains and I think it was also possible to build a city on a mountain, possibly with a river. Yeah, and the rivers provided with an additional +50% bonus there

How about that? big_smile

that would be fine for me too.. whatever the settings, they will effect everyone. i shall adapt my strategy.. i challenge and welcome you to make the craziest settings possible smile

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#14 01.07.2014 01:58:25

kevin551
Player
Posts: 285

Re: LT33 ruleset

I won't be playing LT33 but would like to comment on some of the suggested ruleset changes, because I may play LT34 and bad settings have a chance of lasting quite a while before getting removed. LT31 was based on the civ2civ3 ruleset. It was this that changed the defence bonuses for hills and mountains. But this is part of a package that changes many terrains. LT30 was based on the multiplayer ruleset - this is basically Book's Rewonder ruleset. We rejected these changes and played using small wonders in LT31 and LT32.

Triremes using river is fun but has far too many negative features to be used in a serious game.  For example it allows fast invasions.

Note despite what Wieder says LT32 was won by largepoxing. Adding rapture growth is probably going to tip the scales further against the smallpoxers. Although a change that would really hamper the largepoxers is the quickturn patch as suggested by mmm2. The changes need to be looked at as a package to see how they balance overall. I recommend as few changes as possible from the successful ruleset used in LT31 and LT32.

I am all in favour of testing 'crazy' settings but would prefer that to be done in test games or 'special' games.

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#15 01.07.2014 04:54:26

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

Sorry, I probably wasn't making my point clear enough.

I wasn't proposing changing the defense bonus for for terrain but only brought up that it was already changed not too long ago.

I don't see making it possible to perform some fast invasions that well. Especially since those invasions with triremes would probably take place in the early game. If only triremes could do that it would allow some interesting strategies but not really make it possible to perform massive attacks against players who have any reasonable defense. Once the triremes can no longer be built, moving the rivers can only be done with those obsoleted ships available. Players will be able to stock few of those but I don't believe anyone could have a meaningful army on those. The best way attacking with a trireme would probably be using it to drop two diplomats/spies for looking the weak spots.

Triremes don't move on deep ocean and have less moves than other ships. It's hard to see how those would become that great threat in addition to the diplomatic operations. Those can prove dangerous, but still...?

I wasn't really saying that LT32 wasn't won with largepoxing. LT31 however had some very effective players using that strategy and I myself was one of those. I used a very different strategy in LT32 and that was also working. However the strategy used by team Det0r in LT32 was a really powerful one. I may have a slightly biased view of this because I was heavily taking part of the negotiations happening during the game but by looking at the animation from LT32

http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?id=375

it really looks like Team Det0r might have easily crushed every single team with the smallpoxing strategy if they didn't make the mistake of attacking pretty much everyone on every front. The remaining 3 teams were all focusing on largepoxing so no difference there. Then again conquering and improving new areas is too slow in my opinion.

LW1b apparently ended very quickly with some similar smallpoxing strategy. LW1a had some smallpoxing elements since going over city size 8 was quite resource consuming and very few people really even tried to have several big cities. Not even when the end of lw1b was not yet known.

This is why I would like to see building city improvements more rewarding. Also it shouldn't take almost 200 turns to have all the improvements in your cities. I know that trying to do that in 100 turns wasn't possible even with heavy support from the team.

Anyway, what I'm looking for is not an overall "crazy" playing experience but more balanced towards getting there faster. Of course I would also like to see some more interesting small wonders but those are a small part of the game and properly added shouldn't make the game that crazy or even too different.

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#16 01.07.2014 09:39:54

akfaew
Administrator
Posts: 619

Re: LT33 ruleset

To avoid confusion LT33 will be based on LW1 instead. Here are the changes from LW1 so far:

diff --git a/LT33/LT33.serv b/LT33/LT33.serv
index cdeb67b..280b6ef 100644
--- a/LT33/LT33.serv
+++ b/LT33/LT33.serv
@@ -6,7 +6,7 @@ set startpos="ALL"
 set tilesperplayer=450
 set topology="WRAPX|WRAPY"
 set separatepoles=disabled
-set alltemperate=enabled
+set alltemperate=disabled
 set temperature=50
 set steepness=15
 set landmass=55
@@ -23,10 +23,10 @@ set diplcost=0
 set trademindist=999
 set diplchance=50
 set diplomacy=HUMAN
-set techpenalty=0
+set techpenalty=100
 set sciencebox=100

-set restrictinfra=disabled
+set restrictinfra=enabled
 set unreachableprotects=disabled
 set maxplayers=126
 set saveturns=1
@@ -38,10 +38,10 @@ set unitwaittime=36000
 set aifill=0
 set techlevel=0
 set allowtake=""
-set spacerace=enabled
+set spacerace=disabled
 set timeout=82800
 set revolen=2
-set trading_city=disabled
+set trading_city=enabled
 set foggedborders=enabled
 set contactturns=0
 set ec_turns=9

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#17 02.07.2014 04:10:24

kevin551
Player
Posts: 285

Re: LT33 ruleset

wieder wrote:

LW1a had some smallpoxing elements since going over city size 8 was quite resource consuming and very few people really even tried to have several big cities.

LT31, LT32 and ladder wars had pretty much the same ruleset. Yet the winning strategy in LT32 was the complete opposite. Many of my cities in LT32 were over size 40, some over 50. It is the mark of a good ruleset that it balances different strategies and allows different methods. You can choose the strategy depending on the size of map, how fast you want to play, who your allies are ...

The problem in LT30 was that turning on rapture growth forced a single strategy.
In Greatturn caravan trading is the single forced strategy.

Balancing the ruleset to allow multiple strategies is not easy. It has taken a long time for Longturn to find such a ruleset. That is why I urge caution.

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#18 02.07.2014 07:06:10

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

The difference between LT31 and LT32 were that the first one was an islands game and the second one was a game with a huge land area (+few islands) and it was also a team game. In LT31 there was really nothing but a huge alliance of alliances stopping the smallpoxing army from taking over. In LT32 the winning strategy indeed was improving the cities but at the same time there was once again several alliances killing the one spreading all over the world. It's of course pure speculation but what really would have happened if Team Det0r wouldn't have made a huge mistake starting a war against everyone on every front? Maybe the same what mmm2 did in lw1b when the world was conquered by T83 big_smile Maybe he had some luck there but I also know that his enemies in that game didn't have that powerful diplomacy and that made it possible to eat everyone one by one with the bare bones cities.

How I currently see it is that diplomacy and making some agreements is the only option for survival and succeeding because making war can be too efficient once you have size 8 cities and gunpowder. That's not the exact limit, but I'm saying that it happens relatively soon and the only real counter measure for that would be heavy diplomacy. In the team game all that started to happen even earlier but from my point of view it was pretty much like that.

The changes I would like to have would be making it slightly faster to build nice cities and improve your empire. Not a major change but something making it more interesting to build cities bigger than size 8. Maybe even adding "Michelangelo's Chapel" as a small wonder making 3 unhappy citizens content wouldn't be too much because now you really need 2 improvements to go over size 8 and I think it's too much in a game where you are already losing ground.

All this of course depends on if one thinks that the diplomatic agreements really changed the course of the game or not big_smile

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#19 03.07.2014 03:25:03

mmm2
Player
Posts: 565

Re: LT33 ruleset

wieder wrote:

The difference between LT31 and LT32 were that the first one was an islands game and the second one was a game with a huge land area (+few islands) and it was also a team game. In LT31 there was really nothing but a huge alliance of alliances stopping the smallpoxing army from taking over. In LT32 the winning strategy indeed was improving the cities but at the same time there was once again several alliances killing the one spreading all over the world. It's of course pure speculation but what really would have happened if Team Det0r wouldn't have made a huge mistake starting a war against everyone on every front? Maybe the same what mmm2 did in lw1b when the world was conquered by T83 big_smile Maybe he had some luck there but I also know that his enemies in that game didn't have that powerful diplomacy and that made it possible to eat everyone one by one with the bare bones cities.

How I currently see it is that diplomacy and making some agreements is the only option for survival and succeeding because making war can be too efficient once you have size 8 cities and gunpowder. That's not the exact limit, but I'm saying that it happens relatively soon and the only real counter measure for that would be heavy diplomacy. In the team game all that started to happen even earlier but from my point of view it was pretty much like that.

The changes I would like to have would be making it slightly faster to build nice cities and improve your empire. Not a major change but something making it more interesting to build cities bigger than size 8. Maybe even adding "Michelangelo's Chapel" as a small wonder making 3 unhappy citizens content wouldn't be too much because now you really need 2 improvements to go over size 8 and I think it's too much in a game where you are already losing ground.

All this of course depends on if one thinks that the diplomatic agreements really changed the course of the game or not big_smile

Michaelagleo's City improvement, ...great idea!!

Kryon in Lt31 had 3 times as much points as 2nd place at some point. But his expansion stopped once unhappiness from #cities grew too much. Michaelangelos Small Wonder would have helped him expand to 60 or so more cities..

Statue Of Liberty small wonder would also be nice for democracy, because it can be annoying to micromanage disorder in ciies, and then have revolution because one city accidentally in disorder 2 consecutive turns...

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#20 04.07.2014 03:25:58

kevin551
Player
Posts: 285

Re: LT33 ruleset

wieder wrote:

All this of course depends on if one thinks that the diplomatic agreements really changed the course of the game or not

You answer your own question with the quote below

wieder wrote:

Team Det0r made a huge mistake starting a war against everyone on every front

Team Det0r is actually Terror and I don't think he did any diplomacy at all during the game. So I don't think diplomacy was a factor in that mistake.

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#21 04.07.2014 05:37:25

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

Mmm2 from Team Det0r had some agreements made but apparently only short term ones (With Team Edrim) or ones they failed to respect for reason or another.

However I'm relatively sure that if the other teams didn't do diplomacy and/or Team Det0r did they would have had really good chances of winning because they were gaining ground really quickly. That wasn't even the biggest mistake they did.

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#22 04.07.2014 21:06:47

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

I propose these wonders to be added to the ruleset

Small wonder: "A.Smith's Trading Co." with cost of 300 (was 300)
"City improvements which would normally have an upkeep of 1 are free of upkeep, for all your cities on the same continent"

-> The idea is to make it more interesting to build improvements of that type. While not really preventing people from attacking early in the game, this makes it more intresting to improve your cities.


Small wonder: "Leonardo's Workshop" with cost of 300 (was 300)
"Upgrades two obsolete units per game turn"

-> Should I say more? smile

Small wonder: "Marco Polo's Embassy" with cost of 1200 (was 400)
"Increases trade output by 40% in all cities on the same continent."

-> The high price of this improvement should prevent people from actually building it early in the game but still giving a significant boost when they do decide to have it. With the cost of this improvement a player should be able to fight a small war.


Small wonder: "Michelangelo's Chapel" with cost of 1000 (was 300)
"Counts as having a Cathedral in each of your cities on the same  continent. This makes 3 unhappy citizens content in each city; however, it does not affect citizens made unhappy by military activity. The discovery of Theology increases the effect of a Cathedral, making an additional unhappy citizen content. The discovery of Communism lessens the effect of a Cathedral, reducing by one  the number of unhappy citizens made content."

-> This would be actually for nations who choose to make war instead of peace. You can conquer more cities and build this later in the game when you start hitting the empire size limits. It can also work for players wishing to build this instead of cathedrals but the high cost should make that harder for the peaceful nations to do it too early.

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#23 07.07.2014 14:45:39

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

All proposed changes in one message:

1) Turning restrictinfra on.

2) Production and trade improvements (markets, banks, factories, etc) giving +50% bonus instead of just 25%.

3) Enable celebration growth

4) Tech trading enabled (should be enabled already) No losing tech while trading / stealing unless going to negative bulbs

5) Instead of losing random techs the "stringed" tech research could be slightly limited by introducing a small cost for techs when traded. 20% of the price of the tech. Getting a free tech without enough bulbs to cover that 25% cost would result with a loss of a random tech.

6) Allowing the triremes to travel on rivers.
For the river traveling triremes in units.ruleset [unitclass_trireme]
move_type = "Both"
flags = "DamageSlows", "RiverNative"

7) Tiredattack ON. Probably is already on.

8) Terraforming available from explosives

9) City trading OFF (should be off already)

10) Cruise missiles: 8 moves instead of 36 and a reduced cost of 40 instead of 50. This because nukes have 8 moves. Also less cost but reduced range would encourage using these from subs.


Changes to wonders



Small wonder: "A.Smith's Trading Co." with cost of 300 (was 300)
City improvements which would normally have an upkeep of 1 are free of upkeep, for all your cities on the same continent

-> The idea is to make it more interesting to build improvements of that type. While not really preventing people from attacking early in the game, this makes it more interesting to improve your cities.


Small wonder: "Leonardo's Workshop" with cost of 300 (was 300)
Upgrades two obsolete units per game turn

-> Should I say more? smile

Small wonder: "Marco Polo's Embassy" with cost of 1000 (was 400)
Increases trade output by 40% in all cities on the same continent.

-> The high price of this improvement should prevent people from actually building it early in the game but still giving a significant boost when they do decide to have it. With the cost of this improvement a player should be able to fight a small war.


Small wonder: "Michelangelo's Chapel" with cost of 800 (was 300)
Counts as having a Cathedral in each of your cities on the same  continent. This makes 3 unhappy citizens content in each city; however, it does not affect citizens made unhappy by military activity. The discovery of Theology increases the effect of a Cathedral, making an additional unhappy citizen content. The discovery of Communism lessens the effect of a Cathedral, reducing by one  the number of unhappy citizens made content.

-> This may be actually for nations who choose to make war instead of peace. You can conquer more cities and build this later in the game when you start hitting the empire size limits. It can also work for players wishing to build this instead of cathedrals but the high cost should make that harder for the peaceful nations to do it too early.

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#24 07.07.2014 19:14:37

Nimrod
Player
From: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 58

Re: LT33 ruleset

Hey folks,

Just to be clear, the ruleset will be largely based on Civ2Civ3 with some minor tweaks, along with the use of Small Wonders (many of which are being tweaked even as I type this).

More or less correct ?

P.S. Gotta say, I'm loving that rapture growth will be back. I'm tired of reading from people who would rather nerf the game instead of mastering the mechanic, simply because they think it breaks the game. /sigh !

Last edited by Nimrod (07.07.2014 19:16:29)


========================
"Shhh ! I'm hunting wabbitts ... "
                  NIMROD
========================

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#25 07.07.2014 20:06:25

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 743

Re: LT33 ruleset

Yeah, it's a modified civ2civ3 ruleset with 3x moves and stuff.

https://github.com/longturn/games/tree/ … /data/LT33

You can check the ruleset's current status from that link.

If I remember correctly the rapturedelay is 3 turns.

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