#1 01.02.2015 17:26:57

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

I was asked about this on the game chat. The reason for that would be chatting with people.

I don't really see a problem with that. Can anyone else figure out why this shouldn't be allowed?

We can of course allow it now on trial basis and see what will happen with that. I don't think it's possible to hear or see anything really. At least on early game. One way for abusing this might be seeing when the enemy logs in but if the defender doesn't do that but lets the enemy to move in peace, I'm not sure if that would be an issue.

In any case the idea is to allow others to move in peace and in secrecy.

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#2 02.02.2015 21:02:32

HanduMan
Player
Posts: 101

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

Tried this in my local game with LT34 settings:

[22:52:04] HanduMan: 'take "Hang Tuah Man"'
[22:52:04] /take: Sorry, one can't take human players in this game.

If this is going to be allowed then someone sholud say 'set allowtake h3' to the server.

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#3 03.02.2015 08:27:34

huru
Player
Posts: 4

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

The rule to limit logged in time is silly, to put it nicely. Better just get rid of it imho. If your units are in my field of vision, then I should be allowed to see them whenever I please, moving or not. Heck, do soldiers in real life battle fields look another way when the enemy is moving?

Anyway, just my two cents, don't be offended and feel free to disagree.. smile

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#4 03.02.2015 08:56:30

HanduMan
Player
Posts: 101

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

huru wrote:

The rule to limit logged in time is silly, to put it nicely. Better just get rid of it imho. If your units are in my field of vision, then I should be allowed to see them whenever I please, moving or not. Heck, do soldiers in real life battle fields look another way when the enemy is moving?

Anyway, just my two cents, don't be offended and feel free to disagree.. smile

Could not agree more!

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#5 03.02.2015 09:03:09

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

In a way, yes.

However there is a reason why this rule is there. In the past staying online 24/7 has been a real problem.

The biggest problem was RTS. People reacted with real time strategy actions and since this is at least supposed to be a turn based game instead a real time strategy, the easiest and probably the only really effective way to do this was to forbid staying online for too long. This will also tell you that it's simply not possible for the enemy to react when you attack. if they are not online, they are not online big_smile

The second reason is that not everyone can stay online all the time and people with this possibility some might get advantage from that.  When no one is allowed to stay online for all the time, no one can really know if some (and what) unit peeked your area. You can sentry units and see where the action happens but you can't be really sure who it was or what it was.

However the rules are quite flexible. if you want to stay online for few hours in the morning and them few more in the evening and once again in the night, I don't see a problem there really. 

You can even stay online for a longer time than few hours but in that case you should be able to reply in a reasonable time if someone asks if you are online. Everyone probably understands why?

However if someone asks you to leave and you have been online for a really long time, you should log out and let that other player move.

An example from LT32. There were players moving for 4 hours in the late game and they were asked after 3 hours if they were online. They replied that they were still moving. However they were not asked to log out. It can be debated what should be done and when, but this was an example from that game.

Everyone, use some common sense. The idea is to allow everyone to play the game and have fun. The rules are there just to make it more fair for everyone.

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#6 03.02.2015 09:25:39

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

What if you forget to close the client or just decide to actually move for 16 hours?

It's not really the end of the world if that happens.  You won't probably be kicked out unless someone complains and even that is not something that's done just because someone asks for it.

Complaining can be simply a line in the chat saying "Why is player xxxxxx" online all day? And yeah, that player is probably not kicked even after that. Admins may ask the complainer if the player should be kicked or they can decide to kick the player. Players have been rarely kicked.

Kicking simply means that the connection to the game is closed and the player can't login again for 20 minutes. Not really that serious but of course people shouldn't just stay online and remain connected because it's not that bad really.

It's possible to ban the player from connecting to the game for a turn or something like that, if he or she must be repeatedly kicked. I'm not sure if anyone has been ever really banned because of this.

Feel free to comment on this. There are no strict time limits because sometimes you may actually need *lots* of time.

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#7 03.02.2015 10:01:14

huru
Player
Posts: 4

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

I kind of see the point of fairness, not everyone has time to be online all the time. But what if I happen to be online doing my legit moves at the same time the enemy decides to attack me? Should I then let him do whatever he pleases first? What if I am on clock and cannot wait? Or vice versa? My point: I don't think this rule really can achieve what it aims to. It's not possible to enforce it so that the fairness is equal for everyone, not without causing trouble to others while helping some. Which kind of contradicts its spirit.

To be honest this is not really a problem for me because I do not anticipate myself being lurking around any longer than necessary to make my moves due to real life restrictions so perhaps I shouldn't even complain. Actually, I'm not complaining, just giving my opinion wink

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#8 03.02.2015 10:17:00

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

"But what if I happen to be online doing my legit moves at the same time the enemy decides to attack me?"

You can do whatever you want and the server allows you to do.

The idea is to have the server settings preventing unwanted and unfair actions. The unitwaittime is one of these limitations. It prevents you from moving the same unit in 10 hours after you have moved it last time. For example if you land some units on the enemy coast just seconds before the end of the turn, you can't move those units right after the turn but only after the unitwaittime has expired.

Some people dislike RTS and some like it but the rules are not trying to make it to completely go away.

"What if I am on clock and cannot wait? Or vice versa?"

Sometimes people just have no choice but to move at the same time. We can try to make this as fair as possible or at least more fair but probably never completely fair.

Then again TC RST is another topic smile

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#9 03.02.2015 11:12:59

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

Lots of rules here was written after some exploits, this was written when a player who was logged all day in a game with speakers on could make counter moves all day.
It was very unfair for most of players so we have written this rule to be used for such radiciulous situations.
Usually we gently ask to logout because someone doesnt want to let their strategy and moves and cant wait 12 hours for make their moves.
We have a backdoor for this situation but probably we will never use this rule because player log out when they being asked.
Only TC time is no restriction, when a player wants to do his moves just before TC, it is normal then he will do it in RTS mode with more players logged in.

If anyone help to solve TC-RTS problem it will be great, but it is much more disadventages then adventages from past ideas to solve it,

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#10 03.02.2015 11:43:41

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 292

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

The best way to solve this would be to be able to program your units to do something, and then ALL units move at TC. If there are conflicts (two units entering same tile or one unit entering the other leaving), then code in rules how a specific situation is solved. Something like Diplomacy.

Last edited by Corbeau (03.02.2015 11:44:26)

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#11 03.02.2015 13:33:50

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

Corbeau wrote:

The best way to solve this would be to be able to program your units to do something, and then ALL units move at TC. If there are conflicts (two units entering same tile or one unit entering the other leaving), then code in rules how a specific situation is solved. Something like Diplomacy.

Can you write a description of situation you can imagine ingame?

I think it could be goes to radiciouls, not understand for anyone, in this way. For eg. - you make your move but you dont know if it is legal, so you will lost a move for next 23 hors, and again and again.

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#12 03.02.2015 14:09:08

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 292

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

For starters, it is clear that this would require much coding, right?

That said, "unit programming" would look pretty much like giving the GoTo command. You would see the path unit would go through so not possible to give illegal orders.

Conflicting orders may arise when enemy units are ordered into vicinity of the target area or if two opposing units were ordered onto the same tile. Well, in the latter case two types of movement orders would have to be available: "advance at all costs" or "stop if you encounter opposition".

However, this would require a serious rewrite of a number of things, including ZOC features. Also, movement could be done in two ways: all move at the same time (one set of problems appears), units move sequentially, either randomly or by some order (fastest first or something like that) or all units use up 1 MP at a time.

So, I'm not sure what you are asking me here.

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#13 04.02.2015 07:28:49

edrim
Ganoes Paran
Posts: 478

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

Corbeau wrote:

So, I'm not sure what you are asking me here.

I am asking to think about your proposition, is it idea to help play or make game harder to understand with many rules about one time moving.
We dont need to code many lines, just make gotoorders on TC only avaible action.
But tjhis will not make game more friendly. We are searching for idea to cut TC without make it much harder to play.
I would like to see units in more RTS way, like every 1/3 move after an hour, it means that if you want to move your unit on a tile it will take you one (1) move you need to wait 3 hours to move it farrer. So if you set goto on plains for 3 tiles it will go 9 hours every move 3 hours later, but on roads moving from tile to tile will take only an hour.
But this idea can bring this game to more time consuming when you need to remember when your units arrive like all this clicking game with time-build and going and all other stuff we dont like in addictive clickers.
Of course you can still make your moves on one part of a day and make another next turn but you will not see if your enemy is comming, but enemy will see if you are comming.

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#14 04.02.2015 07:37:05

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

If all the units were moved at the TC, this would be a very different game.

For me lots of fun comes from exploring during the turn. I can move my ship 3 moves, see something and only then decide where to move or perhaps even attack. If all the moves would be done with gotos, it would probably result with lots of unintentional attacks. Yeah, it might be possible to order the unit to avoid battles if that happens but as said, it would complicate this and make this a different game.

For the TC stuff there has been some ideas like making the TC to happen at a slightly random time (not a good idea apparently) and applying the unitwaittime for all the units meaning that if you move one unit 1 hour before the tc you can't move any unit before tc + 9 hours. That would probably require also coding and would result with different kind of issues.

2.5 will allow us to use workerparalysistime (I'd like to have it set at 10 hours:) and that might make this less tc intensive. Not solving all the issues but some.

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#15 04.02.2015 19:15:40

HanduMan
Player
Posts: 101

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

wieder wrote:

2.5 will allow us to use workerparalysistime (I'd like to have it set at 10 hours:) and that might make this less tc intensive. Not solving all the issues but some.

What is this? I cannot find any documentation about this. I downloaded 2.5 beta 2 but there is nothing there either. Or more likely, I'm unable to find it from where it is. tongue

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#16 04.02.2015 21:40:56

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: Staying online for a longer period of time with the nation is detached

"What is this?

It's a patch for LT games and never really used in a game. I'm not sure how complete it is, but it should be there for 2.5 games.

The idea is to prevent the workers from completing certain tasks if the worker can see an enemy unit. This will prevent most of the TC roads and forts. The units must be moved there before the time limit if the work is supposed to be completed at the same turn. Of course the worker needs to be able to complete the task.

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