#1 28.07.2017 13:49:53

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

The empire sizes (proposal)

This is only a draft, but it could be something like this:

Despotism 25 cities
Tribalism 28 cities
Democracy 30 cities
Monarchy 35 cities
Fundamentalism 30 cities
Federation 34 cities
Republic 32 cities
Communism 30 cities
Nationalism 28 cities

The empire_size_step will be 1, meaning that every new city after the base empire_size will result with a new unhappy citizen.

The idea for all this is to let most players to reach the end of the game and see how they rank in the in-game scores. It's also about winning the space race. Conquest victory will be possible but it's not as easy or likely as it has been in the past games.

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#2 04.08.2017 21:20:08

fran
Player
Posts: 23

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

wieder wrote:

Despotism 25 cities
Tribalism 28 cities
Democracy 30 cities
Monarchy 35 cities
Fundamentalism 30 cities
Federation 34 cities
Republic 32 cities
Communism 30 cities
Nationalism 28 cities

I'm not experienced enough to judge on that, but it sounds reasonable. Shouldn't be more IMO.
How many tiles per player do you plan?

wieder wrote:

The empire_size_step will be 1, ...

I'm strongly in favor of step 1, to have maximum impact in the first game of that kind.
In general, it also will prevent the "I have infinite number of empty size 1 cities bc I had such a lucky start" strategy.

wieder wrote:

It's also about winning the space race.

You might have recognized the Ainu flag shows a space ship on it's journey to alpha centauri.
Serious, I don't think it will be easy, therefor the cost of spaceship parts should be reduced to pre-LT37
numbers for LT40.

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#3 12.08.2017 15:30:57

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

Maybe 900 tiles / player. Standard games usually have about 450 tiles / player. The idea is that there should be enough room for everyone and this wouldn't be a game about building all the cities you can fit on the map.

Actually nationalism could have as few as 20 cities but you could build early tanks and maybe early fighters before getting the techs. Fighters could be built with combustion and tanks with automobile. Those units could also be possible with monarchy.

Also, maybe we could add early caravels with with physics if you are on republic or federation.

Despotism could get early knights with feudalism.

With communism, if you switch to communism, you could build early destroyers.

All the early units will be slightly less powerful compared to actual units. Maybe just less moves. For early destroyer maybe 15 moves instead of 18 and for knights 5 moves instead of 6.

What do you think about gov specific early units? The idea is to make switching between governments more interesting and allowing new strategies.

To make government changes more interesting, the duration of anarchy would be just one turn instead of the usual two turns.

And yeah, the cost of the space ship will be reduced. Makes sense if the idea is to end the game with space race, if possible.

Tech trading is also something that's going to be there but maybe in a for of allowing stealing. The chance of stealing a tech could be something like 50% and the base chance of succeeding with a diplo/spy could be 50%. To spice this there could be a 10% chance for the original owner of losing the tech.

All this will only apply to LT40 and LT39 will remain as more traditional LT game. Just repeating this message so that people who want to play more traditional game know that there will be a more traditional game smile

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#4 14.08.2017 18:33:04

Marduk
Administrator
From: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 150

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

I really like the idea of big map with high citymindist. Not sure about gov specific units though, could unbalance the game. You could also set empire_size_step to a really high value (like 3), and then let the number of cities before unhappy citizens appear depend strongly on the government. Then staying in Monarchy means you'll keep a small kingdom, while steadily upgrading your government is necessary to get a big territory. Kind of realistic in historical terms too. Why several dozens of cities? Less cities means more premium on being able to grow (very) large cities.

For example:
despotism: 5 cities
monarchy: 8 cities
republic: 12 cities
communism / democracy: 15 cities

This way there will likely be lots of empty nature left between different players, which creates interesting tactical challenges (attacking requires good movement planning, but fog of war can make it possible to sneak up unseen).

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#5 15.08.2017 19:34:07

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

Without overlapping one city takes about 50 tiles but people usually build the cities as close to each other as possible. With 900 tiles and without overlapping the players could  each fit about 18 cities if the map was land only. With the shores that's about 25 cities without overlapping. With citymindist 6 I would imagine there would be room for about 30-35 cities / player. Maybe even 40 if there are few idlers. With city limits from 25 up to 35 there should be lots of empty space. If people really want to have more empty land, maybe the city limits could be between 20-30? The empire_size_step probably needs to be 1 because after Shakespeare's that's no longer a hard limit but more like a serious trouble for those who want to get too many cities.

The governments on civ2civ3 are maybe designed to be used at any time of the game and there is usually no real need to switch because of empire size limitations. Maybe once because of that. In this setup there is actually even less need to switch because of empire size but for other reasons. Tribalism and Monarchy should be quite good for those who want to wage war and also research without really pushing that. Fundamentalism is the same as with LT38and it's great for economy and war but reasonably bad for research. I would imagine switching to that in mid game would work for most people, allowing them to play the conquest game while also becoming rich like the Spanish did when they went after the gold of the far away lands. The theme for LT40 is kind of switching between governments and with 1 turn anarchy it should be reasonably easy. In theory smile

I might do something like tribalism - monarchy - fundamentalism - democracy/communism. Or republic if there is no wars close to me but I bet there will be smile

I'm also not 100% sure about the early units, but that's also an attempt to implement the "Golden Age" of the commercial Civ games. Needs to be tested but the idea is that you get a bonus if you are able to use specific government when that gov is reaching the days of glory. Not sure if I make sense about this smile In any case, the early units are not planned to appear too early. Everything should be there one or two steps early and it should be possible to build only a modest number of those units before the others (without the gov in use) are able to reach the actual tech usually needed for the units. Really needs testing...

Something special would be needed for Democracy but no yet idea what that might be. Maybe something peaceful? Not sure really.

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#6 19.08.2017 14:34:43

fran
Player
Posts: 23

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

Marduk wrote:

[...]

For example:
despotism: 5 cities
monarchy: 8 cities
republic: 12 cities
communism / democracy: 15 cities

[...]

I disagree. Following such a path is quite "normal" anyway, so no need to set in stone.
That would be boring.
I'm in favor of the original proposal of wieder.

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#7 20.08.2017 09:47:35

Marduk
Administrator
From: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 150

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

fran wrote:
Marduk wrote:

[...]

For example:
despotism: 5 cities
monarchy: 8 cities
republic: 12 cities
communism / democracy: 15 cities

[...]

I disagree. Following such a path is quite "normal" anyway, so no need to set in stone.
That would be boring.
I'm in favor of the original proposal of wieder.

To be fair, most players don't follow such a path in the games I've seen. Rather they build a dozen cities in despotism, and then just one or two more in advanced governments. Building more cities is currently not an important reason for changing government.

I know it's a radical idea. Let's just generate lots of out of the box ideas and then see which ones we want to include in the experiment.

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#8 21.08.2017 20:07:38

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

Very good to hear bout new ideas. It's also very good if we know what people like or do not like smile

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#9 21.08.2017 20:41:57

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

Nationalism:

- can use max 3 military units for martial law
- 28 cities
- 3 free units / city
- additional units will cost 3 gold
- gets the same trade bonus as republic, democracy and fundamentalism
- corruption / waste pretty much same as with tribalism
- max rate for tax, sci and lux is 50%
- no incite for units or cities

Is this ok, too powerful or too weak? If it's too powerful we could change the ax tax/sci/lux rate to 40%.

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#10 22.08.2017 20:11:59

Marduk
Administrator
From: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 150

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

wieder wrote:

Nationalism:

- can use max 3 military units for martial law
- 28 cities
- 3 free units / city
- additional units will cost 3 gold
- gets the same trade bonus as republic, democracy and fundamentalism
- corruption / waste pretty much same as with tribalism
- max rate for tax, sci and lux is 50%
- no incite for units or cities

Is this ok, too powerful or too weak? If it's too powerful we could change the ax tax/sci/lux rate to 40%.

I like it, nice for warfare. But maybe slightly weak? How big would the corruption/waste be compared to republic? If it costs a lot of shields then that would make it less attractive for warfare (warriors may not care much for trade, but they care about production -> waste).

With low waste this gov would be a production powerhouse.

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#11 22.08.2017 20:24:04

Marduk
Administrator
From: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 150

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

A further thought: would it be possible to have an advanced gov totally geared towards gold income? For example: no waste, free upkeep for buildings that normally cost 1 gold per turn (like Adam Smith), extra trade bonus, difficult to maintain happiness, 40/50 max tax, no free unit upkeep, penalty on warfare, maybe some kind of penalty on research if it's possible to set that. I think Sid Meier had in mind to make the Economic track one of the key ways to play the game besides science and warfare, in the civ boardgames this is also partly implemented. But in freeciv there are hardly any players that really focus on gold income instead of warfare or science.

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#12 22.08.2017 20:39:26

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

The corruption and waste is the same as with tribalism and that is 30. With republic it's 25.

Nationalism has a waste of 15 and republic has a waste of 20. With tribalism waste is 0.

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#13 22.08.2017 21:07:16

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 950

Re: The empire sizes (proposal)

Democracy kind of already is that kind of government. It has a super high tas rate with 90% max tax and it can easily compensate the upkeep of the buildings because it gets almost 30-50% trade bonus compared to, for example, communism. There is only one free unit but there is no penalty on research.

Have you checked the governments with the trade bonus? In LT38 those are Democracy, Republic and Fundamentalism. LT40 will also have Nationalism. All those can be used for building a nation that's focused on econmy. All of them also have a very different approact to it.

Fundamentalism is relatively nice with 70% max tax, 3 free units and with fully free special units (crusaders and fanatics) but there is a catch with sci. You get a 50% penalty on research. Units can be incited but not cities. Extra units cost gold. Very nice if you focus on gold in the mid game. Special feature is that you can use units for keeping the citizens content.

Democracy has 90% max tax and units or cities can't be bribed. You can really rush science or tax if you need to. Only one free unit. Extra units cost gold. Not that good gov for early wars but very robust war machine in late game. Can't keep the citizens content with military units.

Republic has 80% max tax. Quite nice for a peaceful player but only one free unit and extra units cost shields. Cities can be incited but units can't be bribed. Not that good for late game when cities are poisoned to size 1 and incited. Can't keep the citizens content with the military units.

Nationalism (planned) has 50% max tax but there is no penalty for sci like there is with fundamentalism. 3 free units and extra units cost 3 gold. Special feature is that you can keep up to 3 citizens content with military units. It's like republic combined with communism. Kind of tongue

All these get the almost 30-50% trade bonus compared to other governents.

I'll check if I could fugure out something that would be different to those and focus on gold. Do you have any ideas what kind of real government it might resemble?

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