#1 29.06.2018 19:20:24

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Nukes BC? Too short game? Boring must-have exponential breed strategy?
I developed extension for freeciv - additional techs beginning in stone age, with different initial strategies.

At the start, player can develop following "technologies":
Stone Knapping (allow Warriors)
Fire Making (allow Barracks)
Animal Husbandry (allow Explorer)
Creative Art (allow Stonehenge wonder)

Only Tribalism is available at this stage.
Stonehenge act similar to Copernicus Observatory wonder.

Initially player can make only migrants (or coinage), no settlers or other units nor buildings.
Migrants are aggressive units, stats similar to Warriors, but they cannot conquer enemy town nor fortify. They can be used as militia though. Or can be used to build up capital town as typical migrant.
Migrants cannot make roads etc.

Next tier of knowledge is Agriculture Farming, Forestry, Horse Riding, Ceremonial Burial and Alphabet (no diplomat).

Settlers need Agriculture Farming knowledge (Fire making and Animal husbandry are prerequisites).

Third tier is: Absolutism (Despotism enabled), Warrior Code, Pottery and Map Making.

Tertiary are Polytheism, Code of Laws, The Wheel, Bronze Working, Seafaring and Writing (diplomat enabled).
Masonry require Bronze working.

Here is example of such tech tree:
techtree-test1.png

I used LT rules as base of my modifications, but currently I'm preparing similar rules as civ2civ3 default ruleset alteration.

I performed some tests, using rather hard initial unit set: two settlers and one migrant, no huts.

If LT based ruleset is used, it takes about 40 turns to develop Farming, however it can be speeded up by better optimisation of income.
I didn't tested it for typical LT initial settings, but 4 settlers and bunch of workers would yield much better progress.

In case of modified classic rules, only 12-15 turns are needed for two initial towns, but meanwhile AI can beat you using Warriors.
As I said, different strategies are possible.

More informations soon.

Last edited by Wahazar (29.06.2018 19:22:44)

Offline

#2 30.06.2018 14:18:28

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 1,584

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Interesting changes. Definitely interesting. If you finalize the ruleset at a later time, maybe we could play with it one day. Corbeau is also preparing a ruleset for LT42 and that game will start around September.

In the late game there are more techs giving the player new unit types. More compared to the early game. Might be a good idea if we could have more civilization (trade, sci, economy, etc.) improving techs there.

Offline

#3 01.07.2018 11:58:42

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Here is ruleset, based on LT settings:
http://149.156.194.203/~mczapkie/fc/fli … stones.zip
You need to edit misc/wonders-large.spec file and add "b.stonehenge", "FS/stonehenge" in sprites section, to see stonehenge graphics.

By the way, are techs bulbs increase in LT rules slowed down? It took 45 turns to get settlers in FS and only 15 in case of default rules.
I'm finishing preparing neolithic ruleset based on standard game, but probably I will make account on regular fc forum and push it there.

Some side notes:
1. because city walls need long tech tree, I decided to make Forestry as requirement for Pre-Fortress (should I rename it to Wooden Fortress?), which need 4 tours to make it, and give stack-killing protection. Other benefits (increased defence, anti-bribing) are reserved for standard fortress upgrade as usual.
2. I added some rootreq flags, thus some technologies are not possible to steal/trade if you doesn't have some basic knowledge.
For example, you cannot get Bronze Working, if you doesn't know Fire Making.
Or cannot get Iron Working, if you doesn't know Forestry and its predecessors.
This feature exists in experimental ruleset, but I implemented it in less restrictive manner.

Offline

#4 01.07.2018 19:32:19

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

This looks interesting and, as far as I'm concerned, we can add it to my ruleset for LT42. I mean, it's already drastically different from standard Civ in general so, what the hell smile

Offline

#5 03.07.2018 14:20:22

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

So, to continue here:

Wahazar wrote:

At the start, player can make only migrants (or coinage), no settlers or other units nor buildings. Migrants are aggressive units, stats similar to Warriors, but they cannot conquer enemy town nor fortify. They can be used as militia though. Or can be used to build up capital town, as typical migrant.

Shall we call them Tribesmen"? Or, even better, "Tribe"?

Because city walls are not easy accessible, I added Wooden Pre-Fortress (based on idea from LongTurn servers), which require only Forestry knowledge. Pre-Fortress prevents against kill-stack, but no defence bonus nor bribing protection - these are served by regular Fortress enabled by Construction, as usual. Pre-fortress is also groundwork for regular Fortress.

A few thoughts:
- call it "Stockade"
- why no defence bonus? let's have +25% (x1.25) for Stockade and +60% (x1.6) for Fortress, making it x2.0 total

I like this ruleset very much, but only for its realism and aesthetics. However, I fear it would only make the already slow first stage of the game even slower. With Workers in the 2nd column it will take a lot of time for the people to be able to actually start doing something and the game will be VERY static for more than a week, with everything moved further down the line.

Also, I don't think that postponing further expansion (Settlers) so much makes sense. Hell, all those early people were basically doing was procreating and expanding.

So I'd propose the following (using the suggestions I made above):
- Tribes(men) are multi-purpose units, basically Migrants, who can fight, scout, but also create new cities; it fits with the low civilizational development and basically no specialization; just group of people wandering around doing whatever they need to do at the moment; however, not irrigating or building roads
- make Tribes(men) cheap in shield, also use only 1 population; smallpoxing will be hindered by the fact that there will be no rapid city growth (unless you get lucky with wheat) and no tile improvement
- Tribes(men) are obsolete by Settlers and to get Forestry (Workers) you need agriculture
- city size 1 (and maybe 2) have defence bonus 0 (zero); If someone decides to spend more time in such state (quick and low-tech expansion) he gets ran over by someone who got Horsemen
- city radius during Tribalism is really small, further preventing large growth unless you get Despotism and switch city-producing units to Settlers
- maybe also tie defence bonus to government: zero at Tribalism, more with every other government; after all, tribes don't build cities, they build unfortified villages and camps; and a village may grow big, but it's still only a village
- maybe add a city improvement - "City Hall" - that signifies a growth from a village into a city; a city with "City Hall" can't build Tribes(men) anymore, but gets a better defence bonus; maybe make it impossible to grow the settlement to size 2 (or 3) without a City Hall

With all this, Tribalism really becomes an early stage in the development of the nation, but with distinct features and a specific role.

Offline

#6 03.07.2018 14:21:52

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Wahazar wrote:
Corbeau wrote:

... I fear it would only make the already slow first stage of the game even slower. With Workers in the 2nd column it will take a lot of time for the people to be able to actually start doing something and the game will be VERY static for more than a week, with everything moved further down the line.

Are you talking about Longturn game? In such case you are right, it is slow because tech advances are slow, so it take about 40..45 turns to get Farming, while for classic ruleset, only 12..15, I don't know why (are there changed settings for LT bulbs?).
Basically these neolithic "knowledges" need 3..4 bulbs, palpably not a rocket science wink
If talking about postponing settlers: primitive tribes were limited to their caves.

Your proposals are very interesting, but they need to implement new graphics, what is not convenient in case of freeciv.
My intention was to alter rulesets and rely on existing graphics (the only one new is stonehenge, but lack of this graphic is not critical).
Maybe we can apply these proposals for LT fork of neolithic ruleset discussed elsewhere.

BTW, defence bonus depending on city size or city radius depending on government are brilliant idea.

PS. what does mean "smallpox" ?

Offline

#7 03.07.2018 14:23:26

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Wahazar wrote:
Corbeau wrote:

... I fear it would only make the already slow first stage of the game even slower. With Workers in the 2nd column it will take a lot of time for the people to be able to actually start doing something and the game will be VERY static for more than a week, with everything moved further down the line.

Are you talking about Longturn game? In such case you are right, it is slow because tech advances are slow, so it take about 40..45 turns to get Farming, while for classic ruleset, only 12..15, I don't know why (are there changed settings for LT bulbs?).

Now I'm not sure what you are saying here. Did you download the LT ruleset and inserted your techtree? If there is a difference between LT and classic regarding same techs, it's probably due to science box size, meaning, general tech cost. it's one number and it's adjustable.

But my point is, LT start is usually slow. Takes 2-4 montsh for anything to start happening (unless someone gets really careless). So your 12-15 turns only adds to that, making the game static for the first 4-6 weeks.

Your proposals are very interesting, but they need to implement new graphics

How so? I only took your elements and rearranged them slightly.

BTW, defence bonus depending on city size or city radius depending on government are brilliant idea.

Thank you smile But it's not a new thing. In LT, defence bonus for a city size 1-8 is 50%, while for cities >8 it's 100%.

Also, I think LT40 had two city radii, the second one being active after building a certain improvement. In my ruleset (hopefully LT42, a bit delayed), there will be very dynamic city radius, starting from 1 and ending at maximum sqrt(36) in increments of 1.

PS. what does mean "smallpox" ?

A strategy where you build cities like mad, placing them close together for protection and quick production growth. The name comes from the way the map looks like.

Offline

#8 03.07.2018 18:37:30

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Corbeau wrote:

Did you download the LT ruleset and inserted your techtree?

It is exactly what I did, ruleset presented in this thread is based upon LT44 ruleset from github, whereas similar ruleset based on civ2civ3 ruleset is presented on freeciv forum
http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=90346

Corbeau wrote:

But my point is, LT start is usually slow. Takes 2-4 montsh for anything to start happening (unless someone gets really careless). So your 12-15 turns only adds to that, making the game static for the first 4-6 weeks.

Well, it will be static for these waiting for Farm tech, not for these exploring/conquering, but I see your point, my approach to get rid of so called smallpox is to retrictive,
your ideas with pre-settlers and weak small towns seems to be better - why force given behavior, instead providing better balance between different strategies.

City radius depending on its size seems to be reasonable idea, currently there are only negative effects from large city - better to have many small than one big.

Your proposals are very interesting, but they need to implement new graphics

How so? I only took your elements and rearranged them slightly.

Tribes, City Hall - all these need new graphics. Of course we can use some existing graphics as alternative one, but it is OK for testing, not regular game.

Another idea: no palace at the start (some basic tech must be achieved to build it - Ceremonial Burial?), of course Tribalism corruption/waste should behave similar to Communism,  but on much higher level (50%?), and very low or 0 probability of civil war. Palace would decrease corruption locally and allow better city growth.
One important reason of lack of initial Palace: pain in the ... when placing first city which would be your capital, whereas dark void is around. Even explorers doesn't help with such decisions.

Offline

#9 04.07.2018 10:11:00

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Your proposals are very interesting, but they need to implement new graphics

How so? I only took your elements and rearranged them slightly.

Tribes, City Hall - all these need new graphics. Of course we can use some existing graphics as alternative one, but it is OK for testing, not regular game.

I think it is ok also for a regular game.

About Tribe(smen): you said "only Migrants". Well, that's the unit I was referring to, just give it some more properties. Or use Warriors icon. It may seem confusing at start, but you can check which unit that really is by clicking on it. Firstly, it's an early game so there won't be much confusion with so few units. Secondly, it will represent the fact that one band of wanderers didn't seem too different from another and you actually had to take a better look to determine what they are up to.

And we've used same icons for different city improvements a few times already. That is the least important thing of all, nobody is looking at the icon anyway.

Another idea: no palace at the start (some basic tech must be achieved to build it - Ceremonial Burial?), of course Tribalism corruption/waste should behave similar to Communism,  but on much higher level (50%?), and very low or 0 probability of civil war. Palace would decrease corruption locally and allow better city growth.
One important reason of lack of initial Palace: pain in the ... when placing first city which would be your capital, whereas dark void is around. Even explorers doesn't help with such decisions.

This seems like a good idea. But you shouldn't make it too expensive or it will slow the game down even more.

Another idea: make the Palace another prerequisite for Despotism. Or the only one, no tech needed?

Offline

#10 04.07.2018 11:35:54

Sketlux
Player
From: Germany
Posts: 143

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Tribes, City Hall - all these need new graphics.

http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.ph … e&start=70

There you can find a tax office that could perfectly be a City Hall.

Offline

#11 04.07.2018 15:03:44

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 1,584

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Currently you need masonry for building the palace.

Using the same graphics for city improvements is not a problem. Would be nice to have unique graphics but using the same stuff is not that big deal. However with units those using the same gfx should have at least roughly same qualities. The longboat and the triremes are an example of this even while the longboat can travel on deep ocean.

Using the migrants as a militia unit is something different but how does it differ from warrior? Warriors already are very weak and are also really cheap to produce. Having too cheap units might become a problem with some players allying and starting to "train" units with the cheap ones.

Offline

#12 04.07.2018 22:00:47

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

wieder wrote:

Using the migrants as a militia unit is something different but how does it differ from warrior? Warriors already are very weak and are also really cheap to produce.

Migrants as militia units cannot fortify or conquer a city. Additionally they decrease town size when produced. Thus warriors, even if same attack and defence points, are better for combat purposes.
If talking about graphics - I found some ready examples in freeciv forum, but not included in official release, for example "Hunter".

Offline

#13 09.07.2018 13:40:04

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Corbeau wrote:

Another idea: no palace at the start (some basic tech must be achieved to build it - Ceremonial Burial?), of course Tribalism corruption/waste should behave similar to Communism,  but on much higher level (50%?)

Another idea: make the Palace another prerequisite for Despotism. Or the only one, no tech needed?

OK, everything is ready, Tribal government with high but flat corruption/waste and small critical empire size/step (reasonable for Tribalism), no palace, but there is a hook: how to force Tribalism as initial government?
Even if Despotism is not reachable, game constantly make it as default, and every towns dies immediately.
EDIT: I found it, in nations.ruleset, but every individual nations rulesets refuse it.

Last edited by Wahazar (09.07.2018 14:31:47)

Offline

#14 09.07.2018 15:49:03

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

...so, did you fix it or...?

Offline

#15 09.07.2018 16:28:43

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Corbeau wrote:

...so, did you fix it or...?

Yes and not.
I fixed it by editing default/nationlist.ruleset (allowed_govs), I have no idea how to fix it using only own ruleset dir.

Offline

#16 10.07.2018 00:04:47

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Maybe it isn't possible because, mechanically, Initial Conditions fall into the "scenario" category. Any experts here can confirm this?

Offline

#17 10.07.2018 10:05:44

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Corbeau wrote:

Maybe it isn't possible because, mechanically, Initial Conditions fall into the "scenario" category.

Not such case, you can change initial government to Monarchy, Communism etc, but not to Tribal.
It is simple bug, they added Tribal, but forgot to update allowed_govs which are outside of the ruleset dir.
I will post a ticket on github.

If talking about City Hall - it is not possible to make "negative requirement" of building for unit allowance, but I introduced "Tribe Hut", it uses Hut graphics but is a building, which allow to make Tribesmen. Farming allow to make City Hall and obsolete Tribesmen and Tribe Hut.
City Hall increase city radius to default one, without City Hall there is only closest surroundings available.
Thus there are several strategies available. Smallpoxing is not hindered, but is not the only one win-win strategy.

BTW, small radius without City Hall is nice, when you have small patches of free land between your cities, regular city need lot of micromanagement  to avoid resources concurrency with already existing neighbours, absence of City Hall can resolve such issues, it will use what is is supposed to, and no aqueducts/sewage begs etc.

Offline

#18 10.07.2018 12:54:42

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

The only problem is: does every city need to go through Tribe Hut - City Hall phase? It would be a bit ridiculous in the later stages of the game.

Offline

#19 10.07.2018 14:26:28

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Corbeau wrote:

The only problem is: does every city need to go through Tribe Hut - City Hall phase? It would be a bit ridiculous in the later stages of the game.

No, Tribe Hut are obsoleted by Farming, thus later you can just start to make City Hall. Additionally both Tribe Hut and City Hall remove production penalty for Tribal gmt.
One thing bug me out - I don't know how to set Tribe Hut or City Hall as default building, now always coinage is first to build (I'm not speaking about initial "free" building like palace, but default thing to build in new city).

Offline

#20 12.07.2018 08:40:54

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Neolithic tech tree ruleset

Well done wink

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB