#1 01.10.2018 03:56:44

Hans_Lemurson
Player
From: Silicon Valley
Posts: 128

Global warming strikes!!!

Red team's reckless industrialization has created a major worldwide environmental crisis.

Forests turn to jungle, plains turn to dry desert, coastal and riverside lands turn to swamp, and swamps are overtaken by the sea.

Several strategic rail lines were severed by the rising oceans, and our Engineers are working overtime to fix the damage.
V1Xg4aV.png

We are many many many turns away from any technologies that could limit or slow pollution output, so I expect this to get much much worse before too long.

Is it just me or is Global Warming a little bit too strong?  Shouldn't it be more of a slow burn?  We haven't even discovered the automobile yet!

Is GW adjusted for map size?

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#2 01.10.2018 08:41:44

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Have you actually tried... cleaning up?

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#3 01.10.2018 17:35:30

Hans_Lemurson
Player
From: Silicon Valley
Posts: 128

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Corbeau wrote:

Have you actually tried... cleaning up?

Cleaning up the pollution to minimize its effect on the climate?
Or are you just referring to the fact that all GW changes are technically reversible: Flooded coasts turned back to swamp, swamp drained to grassland, Deserts transformed back to plains...

I was just expressing surprise at how fast and how early GW arrives.  At the current rate of emissions, the next wave is likely to hit in about 5 turns.

Compared to the real world, this is like Floods hitting in 1880.

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#4 01.10.2018 19:07:42

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 1,584

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

There is already a patch to allow adjusting the effects on global warming and also nuclear winter. It was not applied to LT45 basically because I was unsure if it could have been tested enough and if it could have been understood well enough. I'm fairly sure this option will be available for LT46 and LT47.

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#5 01.10.2018 19:13:14

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Hans_Lemurson wrote:
Corbeau wrote:

Have you actually tried... cleaning up?

Cleaning up the pollution to minimize its effect on the climate?

Replace "minimize" with "nullify" and the answer is "yes".

I was just expressing surprise at how fast and how early GW arrives.  At the current rate of emissions, the next wave is likely to hit in about 5 turns.

Compared to the real world, this is like Floods hitting in 1880.

Well, that may seem early, but yes, GW is not accurately emulating real world case, and in both directions. Maybe it does come too early, but it is compensated by the fact that you can completely prevent GW Event by simply - like I said - cleaning up.

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#6 01.10.2018 20:31:06

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Hans_Lemurson wrote:

I was just expressing surprise at how fast and how early GW arrives.  At the current rate of emissions, the next wave is likely to hit in about 5 turns.

Imagine whole World, not just Western countries, with heavy steel production and dense steam transport - something like steampunk - global warming is inevitable.

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#7 01.10.2018 20:43:35

zoltan
Player
Posts: 11

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Actually you can't completely prevent GW. The pollution produced in a turn bumps up the climate counters before you can even clean it.

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#8 01.10.2018 23:01:33

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

zoltan wrote:

Actually you can't completely prevent GW. The pollution produced in a turn bumps up the climate counters before you can even clean it.

Enough to push the throttle from -4% to +1%?

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#9 02.10.2018 10:50:22

Hans_Lemurson
Player
From: Silicon Valley
Posts: 128

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

We've been pretty good about cleaning it up.  It messes with terrain yields, so there's little reason to not clear it as soon as possible.  I would be shocked if "failure to clean pollution" accounts for more than 15% of the total Greenhouse Gas Emissions.

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#10 02.10.2018 14:08:50

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Wait... As far as I know, polluted tiles account for exactly 100% GW. If you clean all pollution immediately, there should be no GW. The threshold of -4% should take care of the tiles being polluted on TC!

In my experience, if there is GW, it means someone somewhere isn't cleaning up.

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#11 02.10.2018 21:58:01

Hans_Lemurson
Player
From: Silicon Valley
Posts: 128

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

I'm 95% sure that Global warming is calculated before Engineers take their turn, thus pollution always has an effect.  Waiting a turn to clean it up merely let's it act twice.

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#12 03.10.2018 06:46:06

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

But still, what is calculated are polluted tiles, not the pollution in the cities.

I can't imagine how much someone has to be a filthy pig to create enough polluted tiles in one turn for the counter to jump above 0%. I guess it's possible, but still.

Also, keep in mind, pollution has inertia. If it was left to stink for a while and is only then being cleaned up, it takes a while for the effect to wear out.

Anyway, for more details, check "Math of Freeciv".

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#13 03.10.2018 07:56:00

Hans_Lemurson
Player
From: Silicon Valley
Posts: 128

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Corbeau wrote:

But still, what is calculated are polluted tiles, not the pollution in the cities.

I know.  That's what I was referring to.

Corbeau wrote:

I can't imagine how much someone has to be a filthy pig to create enough polluted tiles in one turn for the counter to jump above 0%. I guess it's possible, but still.

Can you think of no one?
I8GOhQI.png
I'm doing my best!

But in all seriousness, a 181x181 world has 32,761 tiles.  Divide that by 500 and you get 65.5 tiles, which is the threshold for global warming to begin.  The Hansa alone generated 6 tiles of pollution at the beginning of this turn, which is lower than my average.  Multiply this by the many industrialized nations of the world, and it's not unreasonable that we are breaking this threshold on a regular basis.

Corbeau wrote:

Also, keep in mind, pollution has inertia. If it was left to stink for a while and is only then being cleaned up, it takes a while for the effect to wear out.

Anyway, for more details, check "Math of Freeciv".

Inertia?  A pollution tile stops doing anything the moment you clean it up.  The "effect" that takes time to wear off is simply the disaster-counter decreasing in probability over time.  If you have a 20% chance of warming, and all pollution magically ceased the next turn, it would then decrease to a 16% probability instead of simply vanishing.

Last edited by Hans_Lemurson (03.10.2018 07:57:53)

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#14 03.10.2018 09:37:17

Corbeau
Player
Posts: 804

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Wow! That's... impressive! Ok then, maybe the disaster counter really needs some readjustment...

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#15 03.10.2018 16:58:10

Wahazar
Player
Posts: 128

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

Corbeau wrote:

Wow! That's... impressive! Ok then, maybe the disaster counter really needs some readjustment...

When playing singleplayer with LT44 rules, I also spotted intensive global warming effect.
Probably it is related to a higher town radius (than for standard rules) , thus 10mln peoples population is relatively easy to gain.
Within my "advanced modpack" I successfully fixed it by lowering factory production/pollution, introducing other resource related industry (thus pollution is localized) and making more improvements to be town size restriction, beside aqueduct/sevage. But it is for different topic.

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#16 03.10.2018 17:12:05

wieder
Administrator
Posts: 1,584

Re: Global warming strikes!!!

There is this code fix but also an alternative or additional fix of making it much cheaper to build non polluting plants. I believe this was already implemented for LT46.

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